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Deep Junior (Computer) vs Garry Kasparov
FIDE Man - Machine WC (2003), New York, NY USA, rd 6, Jul-02
Sicilian Defense: Najdorf. Opocensky Variation Traditional Line (B92)  ·  1/2-1/2

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Kibitzer's Corner
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Feb-07-03
Premium Chessgames Member
  Sneaky: how anti-climactic!
Feb-07-03  refutor: i thought we were going to get a peek at some of kasparov's 'home-cooking' in the sicilian after he played the surprising 9. ... Bd7?!
Feb-07-03  BLD9802: Judging by his reaction on television, I think Kasparov may have overlooked the 25.Bc1 idea. Perhaps the draw was a favorable result for him---although he started off well, I think that the advantage was drifting over to the computer toward the end of the game (notice the defensive position of Kasparov's minor pieces and the potential vulnerability of his pawns).

Anyway, I am happy that Kasparov did not lose the match.

Feb-07-03  Spitecheck: My gut reaction was that he overlooked the Ba3 line as well, I overlooked it LOL.....The more I started to look at the position it seems Black does not have so much pressure as all those commentators were thinking.....Black has the central pawn majority (and more pawns in general) but it is exposed from a number of angles from which white can attack it. Kasparov would be thinking, the game will go along time, I may blunder, there will be exchanges those white rooks will start to look more dangerous (as opposed to the two black knights), one of which will be exchanged perhaps and the other unable to comfortably find a strong point in the centre from which to dominate. Kasparov "wants" (will settle for) the draw in this match anyhow, it just means he'll get a rematch, and another 500 000 dollars. If he'd won, a potential rematch may be yonks away. I look forward to another match between the master and the student gizmo(?!!?). Anti-climactic, yes, there is still play left in the position when the draw was negotiated, you may get the idea from the computer that it had positive position evaluation when Kasparov originally offered, only several moves later however the story ended.
Feb-08-03  Argull: I think today we can say computers are better than humans in chess, because Kramnik and Kasparov couldn`t win them, and they are better two players in the world, then another GM will be beating easily. In other hand i saw that Kasparov and Kramnik had a lot of problems to finish the match with the same puntuation that computer. I think this is the end of human interesting chess.
Feb-08-03  ughaibu: Argull: Do you think computers find chess interesting? Chess is a game created by humans for humans, computers are irrelevant to both the game and it's potential to be interesting.
Feb-08-03  alhine: Again, disappointing. Ironic, K "agenda" to not lose actually may have cost him more from a credibility standpoint. He should have fought it out, period. It was only move 28. Why not 28...f6? I found the commentators entertaining, despite their superficial analysis. This new format may be the most significant result of this match.
Feb-08-03  coxschess: I disagree with Argull. The computers have proven NO superiority over the top GM's. The last 3 man vs machine matches have been draws Bareev-Hiarcs8=draw, Kramnik-Deep Fritz=draw, and now Kasparov-Deep Junior=draw. That does not make the machine superior, not yet anyways.

Humans still play the better ideas. Kasparov had the better positions in 4 of the 6 games, his ...Qa1+ in Game 3 prob. cost him a win in the match. Kramink got carried away (human emotion) and made a piece sac that cost him a game he otherwise had a clear advtange in. Computers are not "out-playing" the humans they are simply waiting for humans to make mistakes, that is not superiority.

In this final game. After the exchange sacrifice 23...Rxc3! (which must be correct) 24. bxc3 Bxe4 25. Bc1! Bxg2 26. Kxg2

Black had an alternative here.
Fritz seems to like 26...d5!? this takes away the planned pressure against d6 and opens up the diagnol for blacks bishop. However after 27. f4 Bd6 28. fxe5 Bxe5 black has an isolated d-pawn with weaknesses of his own- probably not what most GM's envisioned when they liked the exchange sac. I let Frtiz 8 look at it overnight though and after 7 hours of thought considers black to have a slight edge. A draw looks likely.

Analysis by Fritz 8:

(-0.34): 27.f4 Bd6 28.fxe5 Bxe5 29.Nd4 Rc4 30.Nf5 Bxc3 31.Ne7+ Kh7 32.Nxd5 Nxd5 33.Rxd5 Nc5 34.Kf3 Nxa4 35.Rd7 Kg6

White could also try in this line:
(-0.09): 27.Bb2 Bd6 28.Nd2 b5 29.axb5 axb5 30.Nf3 Re8 31.Ra1 Rb8 32.Ra6 Nb6 33.Nd2

After the GAME continuation 26...Rxc3 27. f4 and Lev Alburt's 27...f6 intending to centralize the king by marching it to e6 and unraveling then black pieces, Fritz was inclined to try and exchange rooks, something black certainly does not want to do.

After 28. Rd3 Rc4 I let Fritz look at this for over an hour and he favors black in the following lines:

Analysis by Fritz 8:

1. (-0.44): 30.a5 Kf7 31.axb6 Nxb6 32.Na5 Ra4 33.Nc6 Nc4 34.Bb4 a5 35.Bc3 Nc7 36.fxe5 fxe5

2. (-0.62): 30.fxe5 fxe5 31.a5 Kf7 32.Rf2+ Ke6 33.Re2 g6 34.Nd4+ Kf7 35.Nb3 e4 36.Rf2+ Nef6 37.Rd1 d5

Black looks better but theres a long way to go.

Feb-08-03  ughaibu: If anyone really needs convincing about the relative abilities of computers and humans at playing chess I suggest they visit this site: http://www.xs4all.nl/~timkr/chess2/...
Feb-08-03  alhine: Solution to this nonsensical result: disallow draw offers; Afterall, if a computer offers a draw, its simply saying that its incredible calculating capability shows its a draw. A human can then use the computers calculating ability and thus save precious brain energy. Have an independent arbiter panel on hand to declare book draws. Game six was far from a book draw.
Feb-08-03  Fool on the Hill: It is interesting to note the critcism of computers and chess, as most kibitzers are using software to analyze the games. Board games, being primarily a numbers crunching exercise, are one of the few places where computers can be truly competitive with a human brain. As fun and beautiful as Chess can be, it is just statistical analysis in the end.
Feb-08-03  TheOppositeOfChess: "Computers are not "out-playing" the humans they are simply waiting for humans to make mistakes, that is not superiority."

coxchess...

How is capitalizing on someones mistakes not outplaying them?

How are you not "superior" when you are realizing your opponent is making mistakes?

Think about it, thats right, you make no sense.

I don't know why every halfwit reporter on CNN has decided the fate of humanity rests on Kasparov, when millions of people have been losing against computers since the first Chessmaster 1000 probably rolled off the production line in 1986. The fact that only 1 : 1,000,000,000 people in the world can stand up to these supercomputers should be a clear enough sign that they are superior.

Right coxchess, where would you be without your Fritz 8 telling you what to say?

Feb-08-03  Fool on the Hill: <argull> "I think this will be the end of Human interesting chess."

Just because even Kasparov can't crunch numbers like Deep Jr. doesn't mean chess has lost anything There are still lots of variations that Garry can play with other humans, leading to all sorts of strange and beautiful games. For amatuers like ourselves the Variety is endless. Yes a machine can beat me, thank you "John Henry" But a machine can't feel the "thrill of victory or the agony of defeat." A machine doesn't look out over the field 9 moves into a Sicilian and see a Dragon. Machines crunch numbers, people PLAY games.

Feb-08-03  storoschuk1975: The real question is not whether computers are superior to humans. The post of TheOppositeofChess clearly states the obvious, that computers are dominating the masses and will in a few years dominate the chess elite. The real question is how computers now and in the future are going to impact the game.
Feb-08-03  BLD9802: Agreed. Deep Junior, Deep Fritz, et al. are very good, strong, and impressive programs. They are useful, helpful, and magnificent creations that will defeat even very strong human players, however they are not yet absolutely superior to the best human players.

We must note that all these are basically elaborate, written computer instructions. That being the case, then I believe that we can assume that their performances should all be of identical quality in any of their chess games.

If these programs are superior to the human being and they perform with complete consistency, then they should be winning every single game that they play against any human being, however, that is clearly not the case---if we total the scores from the recent three man vs. machine matches, the result is +3-3=12. An equal score (a fortunate one at that, since it appears that at least two human losses were the result of careless mistakes), with 3 losses after 18 serious tries definitely does not prove superiority. In fact, even Robert Huebner, a substantially lower-rated and older player, held an even score with a Fritz program in a short match a few years ago.

I do believe that one day the chess computer could prove itself superior to the best human chess player, but at present--although they will give us a hard fight---humans are on top.

Feb-08-03  coxschess: "oppositeofchess"- whatever that means: draughts I guess haha.

"How is capitalizing on someones mistakes not outplaying them?"

I think you missed my point. Human players are still getting the better positions in many of these games because of "superior" ideas. By outplaying I simply mean computers are not playing "superior" plans and ideas, they are waiting for tactical errors. If understood in context it makes perfect sense.

As for the future of Man vs. Machine:

Computers benefit greatly from established theory developed by human players, and databases compiled from human players games. I suggest we let the GM's play "Advanced Chess" where they can use a computer to check their analyses. Human ingenuity plus the use of a computer will beat the machine alone in many of these games. I think eventually when the computers become so strong they are beating the GM's regularly that will be forced upon us.

On the other hand computers are a good learning tool for training, analyzing and preparing for games.

As for my posted computer analysis of Fritz 8 it had nothing to do to do with my previous comments. It was given so other Kibitzer's could analyze the chances of a win or loss for either side. After all this is a Kibitzing page. Black had two strong center pawns for the exchange that is certainly not losing.

Feb-09-03  Argull: I read a lot of things about my comments;
1.- Someone told that K was better in some games, but he used a computer to see it. Very extrange he needs a computer to understand K movements. 2.- Another told that computers only did draw, but draws against kasparov, Kramnik and Bareev, what would happen if they playing against ten of world? i think computers will win easily. 3.- Another told that he don't know what will happen with chess in the future because of computers. I tell you, now in Spain is not possible to adjourn games because all the people use computers to see the rest of the game, because of this games are 2 hours for 40 and 30 minutes for finished that is bad to chess, do you think about if it is possible to create games like English-Steinitz and Rosenthal-Stenitz or Karpov-Unzicker with that time? i think it is not possible. Then chess will be only tactic chess. 4.- Another told about human mistakes, that's the most important diference human ever do mistakes and computer never. More a man when he played 5 games begins to tired and the computer's strong is the same ever. This is my opinion.
last question, Which is your score(each one of you) against, for example Fritz? You must think about it
Feb-09-03  ughaibu: Argull: I haven't got a score against Fritz or any other machine, why would I want to play chess with a machine? Chess is an interactive human recreation, computers have got nothing to do with it. If you think that recent events signal the end of interesting human chess I will take it that you intend to stop playing.
Feb-09-03
Premium Chessgames Member
  Sneaky: Many years ago the ancient Greeks conducted foot races to determine who was the fastest runner at various distances. Some specialized in sprints while others went for endurance.

This noble sport endured for thousands of years, until one day the TRAIN was invented... and later, the AUTOMOBILE. But did this destroy track and field events? Of course not!!

I am skeptical that computers will become better overall chessplayers than people any time soon, but even if they do, it won't harm chess a bit.

Feb-09-03  aulero: There was a man that played like a computer for his entire life, but being a human and not a machine occasionally lost games (very few), got tired (just once) or sick (just once) and eventually died (just once!). But, strangely enough, he was neither the greatest tactician, nor the greatest strategist, nor the greatest technician and absolutely not the greatest thinker. He owned only a very special skill: a natural, intuitive and near perfect evaluation of the chess positions.

The computer play can be reduced to calculation and evaluation: if they are able to defeat the humans (one, two or else ten exceptions mean nothing) is because they surely calculate better, but also because they evaluate better (than Grand Masters!).

I think that the natural evolution of chess is using computers as drivers use cars: so future champion will not be Kasparov, but the pair Kasparov + Deep Junior (or Deep Junior + Kasparov if you prefer), much like the pair Schumacher + Ferrari (or Ferrari + Schumacher as I prefer).

Feb-09-03  ughaibu: Did he never get drunk? or fall in love? was he any good at backgammon?
Feb-09-03  BLD9802: Argull: I do not own a copy of the world's most powerful chess programs (Fritz, Junior, HIARCS, etc.), but I do own a copy of the Sony Playstation version of Chessmaster II, and I admit that it defeats me in most of the games that I play against it because I do not have the necessary skill to defeat it (yet...ha ha!) (Incidently, like ughaibu, I find it very difficult to get motivated enough to play a serious game with a computer or even over the internet. To me, chess is most fun as a human vs. human activity, which is why I want to play in a good OTB tournament. After all, nobody is watching me play against the machine and I am not going to win a huge prize for beating it, so why waste all that energy?)

However, the point of my previous statement was that computers are not yet superior to humans at chess simply because our finest, most serious, and dedicated players can still hold their own when playing them. Chess is an ancient game invented by humans, and we only created computers a few decades ago, therefore the burden of proof is on the computers to demonstrate without a doubt that they are superior to us, not vice versa, and so far they have not done that (they can crush less-skilled players, just as less-skilled players can crush less powerful or "cheap" chess computers, but at the present time their best do not seem able to beat our best).

Also, please understand that our comments weren't meant as personal attacks on you, we just don't agree with the idea that the chess computer is superior to the human chessmaster. :)

Feb-09-03  mdorothy: At first, I really liked your Ferrari + Schumacher analogy, but the more I think about it, the less I like it. The difference is that it takes almost no chess skill to operate a chess computer. I saw an interview with one of the guys that operated Deep Junior in this match. He said that he isn't much above an average chess player. Thus, you wouldn't always get matches like Kasparov + Deep Junior vs. Krammnik + Deep Fritz. You still get matches like Kasparov + Deep Junior vs. John Doe + Deep Fritz. Maybe even John Doe 1 + Deep Junior vs. John Doe 2 + Deep Fritz. It's called the world computer chess championship.
Feb-09-03  ughaibu: Mdorothy: Well said. The idea that GMs use computers as partners to verify the tactical soundness of their strategic plans is completely destructive, it removes all the elements of risk, judgement and intuition that made Tal such a wonderful player. Does anyone seriously want to see such a development just so that they can claim the chess is somehow objectively better?
Feb-09-03  Argull: i don't think your comments are against me, but i think chess go to the end. Obviously not coffee chess or chess between friends, but yes for important tournaments. Someone spoke about GM+computer that's the end of chess, risk and interesting are very important in our play.Tahl combinations are not possible with GM+computers. Fischer personality that was very important is not important with computer+GM. If you can't adjourn games because of computers the time for tournament will be lesser, and then chess will be only tactic chess and not interesting strategy chess will be played. Someone told that a program of playstation wins him easily, but Frtiz7 splashed you in a very easy way once and another. but this is not very important, worst is the problem of tournaments. Money is very important and players will use computers to win adjourned games. All of you use computers to see games and no boards why?
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