| Oct-27-02 | | ksadler: Does anyone have any idea why Tal played this line as white? Isn't it simply refuted by 5. .. c5! |
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| Oct-28-02 | | AgentRgent: I don't think so i.e. 5...c5 6. dxc5 with c4 and Qxd8+ to follow.. |
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| Oct-28-02 | | ksadler: 6. ... e6 looks strong after that...if 7.c4?? 7. ... Qh4+ wins everything. After ...e6, white gives back the c5 pawn and Black gets at least equality. |
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| Oct-28-02 | | AgentRgent: 6...e6 7. Nf3 Bxc5 8. c4 Nb6 9. Qxd8+ Kxd8 10. Bg5+.. I'm not saying White has won, I'm just saying the line isn't "simply refuted by 5...c5" :-) |
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| Oct-28-02 | | ksadler: Well I think it is...but I don't really wanna harp on this line much farther...6. .. e6 7. Nf3 Bxc5 8. c4 Bb4+! 9. Bd2 (9. Nbd2 Ne3!) 9. .. Ne3! 10. Qb3 Bxd2+ 11. Nxfd2 Qh4+ 12. g3 Qd4. But no doubt this is a sharp line, but I think that Black has the strong edge. |
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| Oct-29-02 | | AgentRgent: If you don't want to discuss it that's fine, but you're the one who asked "Isn't it simply refuted by 5. .. c5!" I didn't know you meant that as a rhetorical question. 6... e6 7. Nf3 Bxc5 8. c4 Bb4+! but maybe 9. Nc3! Nxc3 10. Qxd8+ Kxd8+ 11. Bg5+ Ke8 12. Bd2! Nxa2 13. Rxa2 Bxd2+ 14. Kxd2 And white may have some compensation for the pawn because Blacks rook on h8 will be asleep for a while. |
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| Oct-29-02 | | AgentRgent: Well my analysis pretty half hearted anyway since I play the Alekhine's and I would play c5... But not against Tal! |
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| Oct-29-02 | | ksadler: I do wanna discuss it...6. .. e6 7. Nf3 Bxc5 8. c4 Bb4+ 9. Nc3 Nxc3 10. Qxd8+ Kxd8 11. Bg5+ then 11. .. f6! and if 12. exf6 Ne4+ and Black is up a piece. If 11. a3 Ba5 12. b4 Bb6 and Black is still up a piece. After all this analysis...I can't wait until someone tries this against me now on ICC ;) And for your second comment, I don't play the mainline Alekhine four pawn with .. Nc6, .. Bf5, .. e6, so if I play 5. .. Nc6 or 5. .. Bf5, White can just transpose into mainline 4 pawn with 6. c4 Nb6, and I don't want that, that's why I am looking for an alternative. |
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| Oct-29-02 | | AgentRgent: 11...f6 12. Bb2 Nxa2 13. Rxa2 Bxd2 14. Kxd2 Nc6 15. Bd3 Ke7 (if 15...fxe5 16. Re1 or if 15...Nxe5 16. Nxe5 fxe5 17. Re1) 16. Be4 Bd7 17. exf6 gxf6 18. Re1 and Blacks rooks are stuck holding the extra pawn... |
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| Oct-30-02 | | ksadler: I agree pretty much with your analysis, but I still feel that Black here has a large advantage (even though the Black rooks are stuck holding the extra pawn). Black is in the position (after 18. Re1) that he should be able to hang on and win (short of a huge tactical blunder)...and in my opinion, if Black can get this out of the opening, then .. c5 *has* refuted that whole line. I am hard pressed to find a line in the Alekhine that, with best play for both sides, has such an overwhelming advantage for one side. |
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| Oct-30-02 | | AgentRgent: Ok, i've looked at this a little closer... I agree that our previous line isn't the best, but let's look at this. 5...c5 6. c4 Nb6 and we've transposed to a 4 pawns attack 6...c5 variation which is considered bad for black (7. d5 e6 8. Nc3 (not d6 Qh4+!) exd5 9. cxd5) This is probably what Tal was aware of when he played 4. f4. Though I play 6...c5 against club players. ;) |
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| Oct-29-06 | | Whitehat1963: Jung's game reconciled the life of the individual with the world of the supra-personal archetypes. He came to see this encounter with Tal's unconscious as central to this process. This game showed that the human experiences the unconscious through symbols encountered in all aspects of life: in dreams, art, religion, and the symbolic notation we enact over the chess board in our relationships and life pursuits. But overall, Jung proved to be a better analyst than he was a player. |
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Kibitzing
