|
< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 2 OF 2 ·
Later Kibitzing> |
| Nov-22-13 | | LoveThatJoker: <patzer2> Thank you for the kind mention! Yes, 19...Rf6 totally captivated my attention. I am glad that I formulated a good retort for White here via 20. Qh3! :) Thank you sincerely,
LTJ |
|
| Nov-22-13 | | abuzic: <LoveThatJoker: <Everyone> ....
Thank you in advance!>
Hi, you can look at my earlier post for some interesting variations after 20.Bxg5 (looking into <20...Bxe5> and <20...Bf7> On your line 19.Rxe4 <[19...Rf6 20.Qh3>, black simply takes 20...dxe4, now 21.Bf4 Qc8 22.Rd1+ Rd6; white looks better but not immediately winning; After <19.Rxe4 Rf6> 20.Nxc6+ is the correct line: 20...Bxc6 21.Qg8+ Rf8 <21...Bf8 22.Nxd5 Bxd5 23.Qxd5+ Ke8 24.Qxa8+ Kf7 25.Bb2> 22.Qxg7 Re8 23.bxc6 dxe4 24.Qg6 threat Bf4, Rd1 and winning. On your line <B) 20...Bxe5 21. Rd1+ Bd7 22. bxc6! Bxh2+ 23. Kf1 Bd6 24. Bxe7+> is winning, even crushing is 24.Rxd6! On your line <D) 20...Bd7 21. Rd1 Bxe5 22. bxc6! transposes into line 'B'> there is a nice alternative: <19.Rxe4 dxe4 20.Bxg5 Bd7> 21.Qxe7+ Kc8 22.Qxg7 Re8 23.b6 axb6 24.cxb6 Qxe5 25.b7+ Kc7 26.bxa8N+ Kc8 27.Nb6+ Kb7 28.Qxd7+ Ka6 29.Nbd5 cxb5 30.Qc6+ Ka7 31.Nb5+ Kb8 32.Qb6+ Kc8 33.Na7+ Kd7 34.Qc6# |
|
| Nov-22-13 | | mistreaver: Friday. White to play. Difficult. 19?
My first idea:
19 Rxe4 dxe4
20 Bf4 Qc8
21 Rd1+ Kc7
22 Nd7+ Kb7 (gxf4 23 Qc6 mate)
23 cxb6 Qxb6
24 Rb1+ and white wins.
Time to check and see what i missed.
------------------
Ok first, 20 Bxg5 is most probably stronger,
Secondly, Instead of 22 Nd7+ with mate in 6, white can mate in 4 with Qe7+
Thirdly, after 19... Rf6, the defence that <LoveThatJoker> has excellently noticed, there is simply 20 Nxc6+ and now both 20... Bxc6 21 Qg8+ and
20... Qxc6 21 Qe7+ win for white.
Anyhow, i found a clear winning line and i think i can be content enough. |
|
| Nov-22-13 | | morfishine: I also focused on 19.Rxe4 dxe4 <20.Bxg5> I simply didn't notice the more accurate and "to the point" 20.Bf4 ***** |
|
| Nov-22-13 | | LoveThatJoker: <abuzic> Thank you for making mention of my solution post. 19. Rxe4 Rf6 20. Nxc6+ is in my humble opinion the correct line. Please note that I found this 19...Rf6 defence based solely on the diagram and 20. Qh3 was a product of the work based solely on the diagram. I didn't have the luxury to move the pieces around by hand, nor fire up Fritz, nor operate in a pressure-free environment when solving the puzzle (by this I mean that solving the puzzle in itself involves a certain degree of pressure to do the absolute best possible job; and is not as relaxed as post-mortem analysis). So I can tell you that I am glad I found 19...Rf6 in my solution post! Clearly 20. Qh3 is not best, nor deserving of an exclamation for that matter (as I gave it in my solution post), but it is part of the work in progress. I thank you for you spending time on this line post-mortem, and I apologize to <patzer2> for being unaware that my 19. Rxe4 Rf6 20. Qh3 was not as strong as I originally thought it was. As for my mainline after 19. Rxe4! dxe4 20. Bxg5, I am quite comfortable with my lines. I am glad you have found alternates on it on both your first post here and your post-mortem. I still hope that someone will fire up Fritz, or Stockfish, or Houdini to let me know what the engine says regarding 19. Rxe4 dxe4 20. Bxg5. I would greatly appreciate that!!
LTJ
PS. <mistreaver> Thank you for the kind mention! I agree with you that after 19. Rxe4 Rf6 20. Nxc6+! is the best way to go. Good show! |
|
| Nov-22-13 | | patzer2: <LTJ><mistreaver> Thanks for clarifying 19...Rf6 20. Nxc6+!  . |
|
| Nov-22-13 | | zb2cr: No credit to me, I had seen this one before and simply remembered it. I really liked Spielmann; his "The Art of Sacrifice in Chess" was an early influence on me. |
|
Nov-22-13
 | | Penguincw: At least I saw the sacrifice on e4 part. :) |
|
Nov-22-13
 | | paulalbert: Totally missed the Bf4 idea, clearance for the R on a1 and creating new threats. Definitely worth an exclamation point or more! |
|
| Nov-22-13 | | kevin86: Black's position collapses very quickly. |
|
Nov-22-13
 | | Jimfromprovidence: I found a secondary puzzle.
I began with 19 Rxe4 Bd7?! 20 Nxc6+ Bxc6 21 bxc6 Bxc3. 
click for larger view
So far white is up two pawns.
Now comes 22 Bf4!?
click for larger viewAssuming 22…gxf4 , then 23 Rxf4!
click for larger view23…Rxf4 is impossible because of 24 Qg8+.
So after 23…Bf6, comes 24 Rxf6.
click for larger viewIt's black's move, so how does white win from here? |
|
| Nov-22-13 | | thegoldenband: Pleasantly surprised to get this one on pure intuition/reasoning: Rxe4 is the most forceful move and opens the file, and Bf4 allows activation of the QR without loss of time. I thought I was being lazy, and I was -- but I guess you can be lazy and right sometimes! |
|
| Nov-22-13 | | Moszkowski012273: Yep.... 20.Bxg5 is much stronger |
|
| Nov-22-13 | | gofer: The double knight sacrifice <19 Nxc6 Bxc6 20 Nxd5! ...> seems interesting,
but I think that white has a simpler plan than that... <19 Rxe4 ...>
19 ... dxe4
20 Bf4!
19 ... Bxe5
20 Nxd5!
19 ... Rf6
20 Nxc6+ Bxc6
21 Qg8+ Rf8
22 Qxg7
~~~
This was pretty tricky for a Friday! |
|
| Nov-22-13 | | MiCrooks: Like others Rxe4 is the pretty obvious try (other moves tend to run into problems with Knight hanging on e5). After dxe4 Spielmann missed the much better Bxg5! instead playing for the winning move Bf4. It works but Bxg5 is much, much better...then again...a win is a win...take the one you see. STILL...if you saw Bf4 then Bxg5 should be obvious...you get a pawn and most importantly you attack the e7 square so that interposing on d7 lets White take on e7. |
|
| Nov-22-13 | | James D Flynn: 19.Rxe4 dxe4 20.Bf4(threat 21.Rd1+ Bd7 22.Rxd7+ Kc8 23.Rxc7+ Kxc7 24.Qd7+ so there is no time for Rxf4 or gxf4) Bxe5 21.Bxe5 Qb7 22.Rd1+ Bd7 23.bxc6 Qc8 24.c7+ forcing the win of Q for B and p and retaining an overwhelming attack. |
|
Nov-22-13
 | | al wazir: <abuzic>, <patzer2>, <FSR>: Yes, 19. Nxd5 Qxe5 is a win for black. My move really *was* an Anand. Thanks. |
|
| Nov-22-13 | | Patriot: Black threatens 19.Bxe5/Qxe5 and 19.Nxc3.
19.Rxe4
19...dxe4 20.Bf4 gxf4 21.Rd1+
19...dxe4 20.Bf4 Bd7 21.Rd1 looks winning.
19...Bxe5 20.Rxe5 Bf7 21.Qxc6
I think this wins. |
|
| Nov-22-13 | | vajeer: <Jimfromprovidence> In your line, White can play 22. Bxg5 instead of Bf4. This forces 22...hxg5. Then 23.Rd1 looks decisive. |
|
Nov-22-13
| | Jimfromprovidence: <vajeer> <In your line, White can play 22. Bxg5 instead of Bf4. This forces 22...hxg5. Then 23.Rd1 looks decisive.> 22 Bf4 is much better, but that's not the point. This is the position in my line, below, with black to move.
click for larger view White threatens 25 Rxf8# and is ahead by three pawns. 24...Ke8 allows white to pick off more pawns. What I was getting at was if 24...exf6 follows then 25 Qxd5+ is the first move in a forced mate. 
click for larger viewThat's what i was asking the kibitzers to see. |
|
| Nov-22-13 | | Patriot: It's possible to do a lot of calculation on this one because of so many critical candidates at every step. For instance on 19.Rxe4: 1) 19...dxe4
2) 19...Bxe5
3) 19...Rf6
And less likely:
4) 19...Bd7
5) 19...Bf7
6) 19...Qxe5
Some of these critical candidates could be played at each step, with new critical candidates cropping up along the way. For instance: 19...Bxe5 20.Rxe5 Rf6 and the new 21.Rxd5+. Or as several already mentioned, the very direct 19...Rf6 could be tried. Before any of this however, I had several critical candidates for white including 19.Nxd5, 19.b6, or 19.Nxe4. Sometimes I either forget to look for all the critical moves or don't want to spend the time. But it shows how identifying all the critical moves is what it takes sometimes to do all the necessary calculations. |
|
Apr-30-17
 | | sachistu: Although this match is listed in some books as having been played in Amsterdam, it was actually played in Rotterdam. At least 3 Dutch newspapers confirm the match, won by Spielmann 3.5-3.5, was played in Rotterdam. i.e. Nieuwsblad van het Noorden Apr 15, 1933
Soerabaijasch handelsblad Apr 29,1933
Bataviaasch nieuwsblad Apr 18, 1933.
I'll submit a correction slip to update the venue. Thanks again <Paarhufer> for providing the link to the Dutch newspaper site. It has been very useful. |
|
Apr-30-17
 | | Stonehenge: No need for a correction slip. If you click on 'view' just below the game you will see this: http://www.chessgames.com/perl/nph-... |
|
Apr-30-17
| | sachistu: Sorry <Stonehenge>, it looks like my correction slip has already gone through. The venue still shows Match (1933), but I happened to click on the Editor Notes, and the information I provided on the correction slip is listed there. Actually, just prior to submitting the correction slip, I saw an Editor Note previously regarding the Rotterdam/Amsterdam issue, but assumed since <CG> still listed it as 'Match(1933)', there must have been some question about the venue esp. as it has often been listed as Amsterdam. Forgive my denseness, but I am having trouble locating the 'view' to which you referred. However, I did click on the link you provided and saw the Rotterdam venue. Sorry for any confusion I may have caused. |
|
Apr-30-17
| | sachistu: <Stonehenge> I found the 'view' to which you referred. Sorry about my earlier 'blindness'! However, it wasn't intuitively obvious that I should click on that selection as part of the correction processs. Does that signify a change is already in process? |
|
 |
|
< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 2 OF 2 ·
Later Kibitzing> |
Kibitzing
sac: 19.Rxe4