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John Kalish vs Edward Dunphy
Casual game (1966), Okinawa JPN
King's Gambit: Declined. Classical Variation (C30)  ·  1-0

ANALYSIS [x]

FEN COPIED

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Kibitzer's Corner
< Earlier Kibitzing  · PAGE 4 OF 4 ·  Later Kibitzing>
Sep-04-12  Crispy Seagull: I looked for a while at Ng5, but for the life of me couldn't figure it out all the way. The king kept slipping away after ...Re8. Totally missed RxB to keep the threat alive. In a game I probably would have opted for the rook lift 18. Rh3 and a threat of some checks to follow. Black's doubled pawns are doing a good job keeping his pieces away from defensive duties.
Sep-04-12  chessdr: I still think 18. Rh3 is an easier win than some of the convoluted 18. Ng5 lines where the king slips away.

18. Rh3 (threat Rg3) Kh8 19. Ng5 Be3+ (if 19. ... fxg5 20. hxg5) 20. Kb1! (leave the rook on the H file) and it's over.

If 18. Rh3 Be3+ 19. Qxe3 Kh8 (if Ba8 20. Qh6 Kh8 21. Ng5) 20. Rxd5 wins a piece.

Finally, if 18. Rh3 Bf2 19. Ng5 Be3+ 20. Kb1 like in the line above.

Sep-04-12  Tiggler: <gofer> did you post a link to your Crafty EGT starting position? I don't have anything better to do either ...
Sep-04-12  chessdr: <ClassZPlaya> and <Once>, I just saw your posts!
Sep-04-12  James D Flynn: Black is temporarily up a piece up but White can retake it on his next move, however, White has mating threats with Ng5 and doesn’t need to take immediately. 18.Ng5(it’s now or never for this move: if Rxd5 or exd5 Rb7 stops Ng5 because 18.Rxd5 Rb7 19.Ng5 fxg5 20.hxg5 f6 and the 7th rank is protected as is the f6 P, 21.g6 Qe7 and Black emerges a piece up) Be3+ 19.Kb1 Bxg5(if Bxa2+ 20.Ka1(not Kxa2 Qa5+ 20.Kb1 fxg5 21.hxg5 Rd8 22.Qxh7+ Kf8 23.Qh8+ Ke7 24.Qf6+ Kd7 24. Qxd6+ Kc1 25.Qc6+ Qc7) Bxg5(if fxg5 21.hxg5 Re8 22.Qxh7+ Kf8 23.f6 Qxf6 24.gxf6 any 25.Qh8#) 21.hxg5 Re8 22.gxf6 Qxf6 23.Qxf6 Rfd8 24.Rxh7 Ke8 25.Rh8+ Kd7 26.Qxd6#) 20.hxg5 Re8 21.gxf6 Qxf6 22.Qxf6 Re6 23.fxe6 Bxe6 24.Rxh7 Kxh7 25.Rh1+ Kg8 26.Rh8# This seems amazingly complicated for a Tuesday. I am not sure the above moves are all correct or even legal, but this is all I have time for. Doubtless somebody will correct my mistakes.
Sep-04-12  standardwisdom: So, it really seems like after the fake 18. Rh3 rook lift, and after 18..Kh8, 19. Ng5 becomes much more potent. Is that the consensus now?

This game has gone so many full circles. In the morning when I saw it, I thought Ng5 settles it. Then, I realized (saw the kibitzing), I realized that bishop check and Re8 complicate the matter.

Now, it seems to me that Rh3 really does lead to a quick win.

Is that the final word, or am I missing something?

Sep-04-12  chessdr: <standardwisdom> I think so. A few loose ends: if 18. Rh3 Bf2 19. Ng5 Re8 20. Nxh7 and a huge material loss for black. If 18. Rh3 Bf2 19. Ng5 Be3+ 20. Kb1 Re8 21. Rg3 and white has too many threats.
Sep-04-12
Premium Chessgames Member
  Once: <standardwisdom> I think it's a really hard one to call.

As far as I can tell through testing the different variations with Fritz, the strongest move in the puzzle position is 18. Ng5. That's the move that first appealed to me when I tackled this unaided, and it is Fritz's top pick. It leads to a bigger advantage than the other winning moves (18. Rde1, 18. Rxd5, 18. exd5 and 18. Rh3).

But in order to make 18. Ng5 work you either need to trust your intuition or you need to calculate a fairly long variation.

By contrast, 18. Rh3 has more modest gains but is simpler to calculate. Fritz gives this as best: 18...Be4+ 19. Qxe3


click for larger view

Now material is level but the black Bd5 is en prise and white threatens to go back into the mating position with Qh6 and Ng5. Black doesn't have time to rescue his bishop and so will go a clear piece down. Fritzie defends against the mate by abandoning the bishop with moves like 19...Kh8 and 19...Bxe4.

I suppose the key feature about this puzzle is something that we haven't really spoken about up to now. As a reminder, this is our puzzle position:


click for larger view

White starts the position a minor piece down and black has a bishop en prise on d5. So we could reasonable deduce that the move before the position was for black to capture a minor piece on d5. And indeed, that was the previous move - 17...Bxd5.

So perhaps that's the real answer. In a game, when our opponent captures one of our pieces our natural instinct is to recapture. But in this position, the better move was to ignore the material and play for mate. Hence 18. Ng5 or 18. Rh3.

Unfortunately for this theory, Fritzie also insists that either recapture (18. Rxd5 or 18. exd5) also wins.

All in all, a fascinating position to puzzle through in both human mode and with Fritz's aid. But I can't help feeling that it's all a bit too messy for a Tuesday.

Sep-04-12  1stboard: Black's trouble started with his 10th move ..... i would have played e6
Sep-04-12
Premium Chessgames Member
  agb2002: White has a knight for the bishop pair.

Black threatens 18... Bxe4.

The weak black castle invites to play 18.Ng5 (18.Rg3 Kh8 19.Rg3 Rg8), threatening mate in one:

A) 18... hxg5 19.f6 + -.

B) 18... Be3+ 19.Kb1 Bxg5 20.hxg5 Re8 21.gxf6 + -.

C) 18... Re8 19.exd5 (trying 20.Qxh7+ Kf8 21.Qxf7#)

C.1) 19... fxg5 20.f6 + -.

C.2) 19... Qc(d)7 20.Ne4 (20.Nxh7 Be3+ 21.Qxe3 Kxh7) + -.

C.3) 19... Re7 20.Qxh7+ Kf8 21.Qh8#.

Sep-04-12  gofer: <Tiggler>: The crafty link is the one given by <daveinsatiable>...

http://www.chessvideos.tv/endgame-t...

Sep-04-12  Abdel Irada: <whiteshark: <18.Ng5>, and that's it.>

No, <whiteshark>, that is not "it." It is far from being "it." What, precisely, is the point of reading your posts if they're going to consist of "<key move> and that's it"?

This is a complex position, as are many of the puzzle positions, and you do them and yourself an injustice by offering kibitzes that could as well have been generated by a five-line program in BASIC.

Sep-04-12  QueenMe: Black's king is *COMPLETELY* isolated - about as much as I've ever seen one; like he's in a different game or something. The doubled-up F-file panws ensure that it will take at least 3..4 moves to move him to safety or to bring any of his pieces over to defend an attack. So ...

All White has to do is begin one! I saw right away that Ng5 was a serious threat because capturing it (and then White re-capturing it with the H-pawn) opens up the H-file - - for which there is *NO* defense of a Rook-supported mate on h7.

I honestly didn't see the bishop check that Black eventually played, but you can see (as did Black soon enough) that it changes nothing. It really doesn't matter how you capture the Knight: the point is that White's re-capture opens up the H-file, from which point Black can't even buy a move with another spike check. Black has painted himself into a corner and must pay the price.

Sep-05-12  Tiggler: <Abdel Irada>: <<whiteshark: <18.Ng5>, and that's it.> No, <whiteshark>, that is not "it." It is far from being "it." What, precisely, is the point of reading your posts if they're going to consist of "<key move> and that's it"?>

And may I ask <Abdel Irada> what is the point of your post? Only to be provocative, I think. I cannot speak for <whiteshark>, but were I in his position I would immediately go to the link that <gofer> cited in the post above yours, where I would immediately run off the moves against CRAFTY that prove: <that's it>. Not sure I would tell you them, though, after your confrontational way of asking. Just my opinion.

Sep-05-12  Mendrys: <chrisowen: Good grief took me a while to cull the pepper but ng5 i shall demonstrate as winning for be3+ goes down to rookd5 and rooke8 flops over d3 ah so i have:> Wow, one of your more coherent translations to english. "Cull the pepper" is a brand new idiom that actually seems to make sense :)
Sep-05-12  M.Hassan: "Easy" White to play 18.?
White is a Bishop down but that bishop can be taken on d5, but instead White attacks with the Knight:

18.Ng5 threatening mate on g7
18..........fxg5 (forced)
19.hxg5 this opens h file
19..........Be3+
20.Kb1
There is no way to stop mate next move and blck can only manouvre redundant move: 20..........Qxg5
21.qxh7#
Time to check to see when Black resigned

Sep-05-12  Abdel Irada: <Tiggler>: I am not trying to be provocative. I am simply weary of reading what is in essence the same post over and over.
Sep-05-12
Premium Chessgames Member
  Once: <Abdel Irada: <Tiggler>: I am not trying to be provocative. I am simply weary of reading what is in essence the same post over and over.>

I've learned over the years that different people use this site in different ways. Some are highly competitive, some are more social. Some will spend a long time on comprehensive posts, some will just give the first key move.

On Mondays and Tuesdays in particular this can make for a lot of repetition. If the solution is fairly simple, we can get lots of posts saying more or less the same thing.

The trick, I think, is to try to be tolerant. There is no right way to post and as long as people stick by the four posting guidelines we generally allow all sorts of posts.

I've found that you quickly learn to skim over the posts that don't interest you. After a while you hardly notice them at all.

Sep-05-12  Shams: <Abdel><I am simply weary of reading what is in essence the same post over and over.>

I for one have never understood the point of recording one's POTD analysis for posterity, but I'm just a cranky old man I guess.

Sep-05-12
Premium Chessgames Member
  Once: <shams> I think it all started with the mighty <dzechiel>. A few years ago, he made the brilliant decision to record his POTD analysis directly into a word processor without editing it or checking it with a computer.

The idea was to show us how a strong player approached a position, what his thought processes were, which moves he analysed and which he discarded, how far he analysed, and so on.

I say it was a brilliant decision because <dzechiel> is both a strong player and a good writer. His posts were inspiring and informative. In fact, one of the main reasons that I started coming to this site was to read <dzechiel>'s posts. Whisper it quietly, I secretly wanted to <be> dzechiel.

The problem was that many people copied dzechiel's approach. I suspect that some people started to think that it was the only way we were supposed to write a post.

And - let's be honest here - it can get a bit boring if every post is saying exactly the same thing. Particularly early in the week when the solutions are <usually> only a few moves long. And - also while we are being honest - few people can do it as well as <dzechiel>.

That's why a few of us deliberately don't "do a dzechiel". We don't record all of our thought processes. Instead we try to add something new, find a new wrinkle, think about the principles underlying a position. <jimfromprovidence> and <phony benoni> are great at this. They find an obscure line or stubborn defence that more often than not has me thinking again about the position.

If you stand back and look at the way we kibitz over a long period of time, it seems that we are constantly changing and evolving. For me, that has to be a good thing. It means that the site offers something for everyone.

The trick is tolerance. If someone wants to tell the world that they solved a sunday for the first time ever, then why not? I know that feeling (although not as often as I would like!). And it's a great feeling. Why not tell the world about it? Ditto if someone wants to post their analysis, tell us that they solved 23 POTDs in a row or say that it took them 0.0001 nanoseconds.

In the immortal words of Shania Twain "that don't impress me much". But if it matters to them then I'm not going to complain. The trick is just to let your eyes slide over the posts that you don't want to read and focus on those that you do.

Sep-05-12  Shams: <Once> Yes, would that every kibitzer strove for originality as you and the other two posters you mention do. =)
Sep-05-12  Abdel Irada: <Once>: You're right. I should try to be more tolerant, and simply ignore such pointless posts.
Sep-05-12  chessdr: <Once> You make a number of good points but I think I'd add one thing. Chess is beautiful. I post my analysis to share what I've found, not to show that I found it (I'm usually a few posts behind). No harm in holding up a gold nugget.

Of course I also wonder if I'm right and seek validation or refutation from others. I'm not strong enough to be bored by the ensuing chatter.

"Chess, like music, like love, has the power to make men happy." - Tarrasch.

Sep-05-12  LoveThatJoker: <Abdel Irada> whiteshark's a good dude. I recognize that you disagree with his solving style - but trust me, at least he's honest about his work.

There is one guy in this forum - I will not name him - who cheats; In a blatant fashion too, for that matter. I was compelled to address him personally some months back here on the daily puzzle and then moved on.

Again, I want to make clear that this is not a problem with whiteshark, as he is a thoroughly honest solver with his own style - Note that part and parcel of his solving style is the humour element of '<23. Bd2!> and that's it!'. If he wanted to bust out some lines, we would see that he's a strong solver.

To conclude, whiteshark doesn't get involved with these wars of words; furthermore, whiteshark is both a senior member of the site and one of the most helpful members on here as well.

So, you are free to express your opinion as you have; I just want you to know that whiteshark is a really good dude with an honest and humourous solving style.

With friendship,

LTJ

Sep-05-12
Premium Chessgames Member
  chrisowen: <Mendrys> It exchange in as ti on g5 e3 in king exposed at g8 hinges

sac rookd1xd5 and white free in b1 alive g5 liven jam it learn in

level it right of finish apex in g5 be3 mater rooke8 Qxf6 has to

liquidate fifth in element rookb7 ok in f6?

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