|
< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 2 OF 2 ·
Later Kibitzing> |
| Sep-28-11 | | iking: <Wyatt Gwyon: God. What kind of time trouble was Carlsen in? That's the kind of blunder I see on chess.com playing 1600 dudes.> it does happen oftentimes .... |
|
| Sep-28-11 | | frogbert: <. But the position of black was not so easy at that point anyway. > true, at this point black was only clearly better, compared to simply winning some moves ago. after the correct retreat Bf6 the game might be a draw, but the position was very difficult - <for white>. |
|
| Sep-28-11 | | MarkusKann: 30..Qd5 ... OMG... |
|
| Sep-28-11 | | The silent man: A lot of people must have lost precious chessbucks today! |
|
| Sep-29-11 | | sebagud742001: can 30...,Rd4 work? |
|
| Sep-29-11 | | Hovik2009: I think Magnus definetely saw that after 30...Qd5 Knight is taking his bishop as any 1600 player could see that also, but he calculated that Paco can't do that because of 31...Rd2!! attacking black queen and f2 pawn for the mate on g2 next, unfortunantly for Magnus he didn't see simple reply 31.Qc5 getting the queen out of rooks range and deffending the f2 pawn at one shot!! I think this is what happened and what Carlsen by not seeing 31.Qc5 called an optical illusion |
|
| Sep-29-11 | | americanlala: both anand and carlsen lost lol |
|
Sep-29-11
 | | Honza Cervenka: <sebagud742001: can 30...,Rd4 work?> I doubt it. At first glance and without comp i would say that simple 31.Qxe4 Rxe4 32.Nxe5 Rxe5 33.Rxc7 Re2 34.Kg2 Rxb2 35.Rc5 winning black a-Pawn gives white a Rook ending with sound extra Pawn. |
|
Sep-29-11
| | Honza Cervenka: <frogbert: <. But the position of black was not so easy at that point anyway. > true, at this point black was only clearly better, compared to simply winning some moves ago. after the correct retreat Bf6 the game might be a draw, but the position was very difficult - <for white>.> Well, you can be right that after 30...Bf6 black is still better. I don't see any immediate tactical possibility to exploit the pin of Rd3, though 31.Rd1 Rd4 32.Qxe4 Rxe4 33.Nxa5 Bxb2 with simplification looks playable at first glance but I can be wrong here. But from purely human point of view that pin of Rook is quite unpleasant and not easy to deal with in a time pressure situation. Carlsen is not a machine, not to say Rybka 4.1.:-) |
|
| Sep-29-11 | | arkansaw: Carlsen is only beatable, by first obtaining a losing position against him :p |
|
| Sep-29-11 | | wordfunph: game quote..
"Well, to unnecessarily drift into time trouble and lose a winning position in a few moves is of course outrageous." - Magnus Carlsen
http://www.chess.co.uk/twic/chessne... |
|
| Sep-29-11 | | Atking: <arkansaw: Carlsen is only beatable, by first obtaining a losing position against him :p> The first step - getting a losing position - is quite easy especially vs Carlsen but alas the conclusion of your assumption doesn't work often. |
|
| Sep-29-11 | | frogbert: <from purely human point of view that pin of Rook is quite unpleasant and not easy to deal with> carlsen chose to enter the position with that pin himself, so i doubt he found it too unpleasant. maybe he overlooked something in the alternative (better) line with Qf3! instead of Rd3, here: 
click for larger viewthe point being that after 28... Qf3! 29. Nc3 Bd4! the rook is taboo. if 30. Qxb3?? there follows 30... Qxf2+ 31. Kh1 Qxg3! and after this "quiet" move, mate or winning the queen is forced: 
click for larger viewthere's no defence against the combined threats of Qxh3 mate and Qf3+ followed by Qf2+ and Be5 with mate on h2 (the latter if white defends h3 via Qb8+ and Qc8). 32. Qc2 Bf2 renews the threat of Qxh3 mate, and white must give up the queen. so in the 28... Qf3 line white must try 29. Nc3 Bd4 30. Rf1 or some such, after which black still has a big advantage. of course, as anyone with engines know, black had the clearer win with 26... Rd3 instead of Qxe4, but that line is again not all that clear (as long as white doesn't play like the engines and take on c7 with the queen, of course): the human approach to trying to save the d1 knight is 27. Ne3 
click for larger viewduring the game i saw the engine line with 27. Qxc7 instead of Ne3, so I wondered what black's follow-up would be to Ne3. maybe Be5+ i thought, as it "wins" an exchange - but the problem of course, is that it runs into a perpetual. however, Qxf2 attacks the knight again: 27. Ne3 Qxf2 28. Ng4 Qg3+ 29. Kh1 h5!
click for larger viewif carlsen followed this line here, i doubt he feared Ne3, so i'm not sure what kind of oversight he might have made. possibly it was the Qxc7 line that scared him off after all: 27. Qxc7 Rxd1 28. Qb8+ (if Rxd1 Rxd1 then black's simply winning and has no worries) 28... Bf8 29. Rc8 might have pulled carlsen out of his comfort sone - white wins the piece back: 
click for larger viewwould *you* enter this position in time trouble, if there are alternatives? ;o) there are still calculation left to be done, so my guess is that Qxe4 appeared the pragmatic, safer choice for carlsen. |
|
| Sep-29-11 | | DrMAL: Amazingly, Magnus missed 26...Rd3 winning and then 30...Qd5? lost as no doubt everyone knows. Big win for white very "off" day for Carlsen we all have them. |
|
| Sep-29-11 | | kia0708: well said
<Big win for white very "off" day for Carlsen we all have them.> |
|
| Sep-29-11 | | frogbert: <Amazingly, Magnus missed 26...Rd3 winning> drmal, get serious. see my post on the carlsen page for an elaboration on why carlsen didn't "miss Rd3" but rather (most likely) turned it down for very good, practical reasons. 26... Rd3 was <very> hard to calculate correctly to the necessary depth - we're talking minimum 10-12 moves ahead before it becomes clear that white doesn't have a perpetual. blame it on the silly time control that carlsen didn't have time to calculate 26... Rd3 through. 30... Qd5?? though can't be blamed on anything but carlsen himself. :o) |
|
| Sep-29-11 | | Hesam7: From Carlsen's blog:
<Things went well and I achieved a position I felt was close to winning. Having a big lead on the clock as well, I tried to figure out a forced win with 26 Rd3. The win was there, but I didn't manage to calculate it to the end. I went for Qxe4 instead, which is also a good move> I looked at 26. ... Rd3! shortly after the game and after both responses (27. Qc2 & 27. Ne3) Black wins quite comfortably. Did I miss something in my analysis or is Carlsen out of form? |
|
| Sep-29-11 | | frogbert: hesam7, see my post on the carlsen page. white's best response is Qxc7. i don't know about carlsen, but you clearly missed something in your analysis. |
|
| Sep-29-11 | | DrMAL: <Hesam7> Thanx for the quote I am surprised he said that. More evidence he had an "off" day. Computing how 26...Rd3 wins is not hard for him (and 26...Qxe4 is not nearly as good). |
|
| Sep-29-11 | | frogbert: <Computing how 26...Rd3 wins is not hard for him> duh... |
|
| Sep-29-11 | | DrMAL: <frogbert> You wrote how hard it was to compute, now you write "duh" perhaps I did not phrase it correctly and you misunderstood. Same for "missed" it does not mean he never saw it, it means for some reason he did not play it. Try not to assume others are below (or at...or near!) your level in chess, I'm not. |
|
Sep-30-11
| | Honza Cervenka: <carlsen chose to enter the position with that pin himself, so i doubt he found it too unpleasant> Well, none of us can see into Carlsen's head to say, what he had thought, when he decided to play 28...Rd3. Maybe he dismissed 28...Qf3 for 29.Nc3 despite the fact that it is not a grave problem for black, as the Rook cannot be taken after 29...h5 or 29...Bd4 as you have suggested. Maybe that he just preferred Rd3 because it centralizes black forces, avoids the swap of Queens and at that point white had no way to exploit the pin due to the Knight sitting on d1. I think that there Carlsen was already quite a short of time to calculate in depth all tactical complications, which could arise from 28...Qf3. But it doesn't change the substance of my point that the pin became quite annoying two moves later, when the white Knight arrived to c4 and when Carlsen blundered. Such a mistake on this level is quite often a consequence of uncomfortable feeling in the position, especially in Zeitnot. |
|
| Sep-30-11 | | whiteshark: <Hovik2009: I think this is what happened and what Carlsen by not seeing 31.Qc5 called an optical illusion> That makes sense. Thanks! |
|
| Oct-06-11 | | frogbert: drmal, after you've read carlsen's own statement -
< I tried to figure out a forced win with 26 Rd3. The win was there, but I didn't manage to calculate it to the end. > - you manage to write
<Computing how 26...Rd3 wins is not hard for him> to which i responded "duh...". who are we supposed to believe: carlsen who says it was hard for him, or you who says it isn't hard for him? it's got little or nothing to do with our respective levels of chess understanding, obviously. |
|
Dec-17-11
 | | kingscrusher: The beginning of Truth - the end of Empathy
Classic case in point is this Rd3 business in this game. Relevant video on the subject:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E8Sm... |
|
 |
|
< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 2 OF 2 ·
Later Kibitzing> |
Kibitzing
