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< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 4 OF 7 ·
Later Kibitzing> |
| Feb-13-06 | | patzer2: Here's an analysis with Fritz 8 and the Opening Explorer: <1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6> This enters the Two Knights Defense (C55).
<4. Ng5> Tarrasch condemned this as "a real duffer's move." Obviously, former
world correspondence champion (1972-1976) GM Estrin disagreed, and I doubt
most modern GMs and analysts would go that far. However, the fact that 4. d3, as in Tiviakov vs Leko, 2006, has become by far
the most popular choice of modern masters playing this opening would suggest
Tarrasch would be far from alone today in assessing that other alternatives offer White
better winning chances. <4...d5> Although this is the most frequently
played reply, Black has an interesting option in the Traxler or Wilkes-Barre variation with 4...
Bc5!? as in V Sergeev vs P Simacek, 2001. <5. exd5 b5> The more frequently played move here is 5...Na5 as in Radjabov vs Naiditsch, 2005 and
Sutovsky vs Beliavsky, 2004. <6. Bf1> A playable alternative is
6. Bxb5 Qxd5= as in H Wademark vs M Keller, 1986,
A Shaginjan vs A Obukhov, 2003 and B Olape vs B Roselli Mailhe, 2002. <6... Nd4> Another interesting choice here is 6...h6 as in
Bronstein vs Flear, 1994. <7. c3 Nxd5 8. Ne4 Qh4 9. Ng3 Bg4 10. f3 e4 11. cxd4> Although perhaps not as strong a try for advantage as the move played, White appears to equalize after the alternative 11. fxg4 Bd6 12. Kf2 (12. cxd4 Bxg3+ 13. hxg3 Qxg3+
14. Ke2 Nf4#) 12... O-O 13. cxd4 Bxg3+ 14. hxg3 Qxh1 15. Nc3 Rad8 16. Bxb5 Qh6
17. Nxe4 Qb6 18. Qa4 c6 19. Be2 Nb4 =. <11... Bd6 12. Bxb5+ Kd8 13. O-O exf3
14. Rxf3> Fritz 8 indicates White can go for the win with a strong advantage after 14. Qe1!
Another alternative giving White a strong advantage, per Fritz 8, is 14. Qb3!, which was played for a win
in Estrin vs J Nielsen, 1972. Note that 14. Qb3!
was the move analyzed and successfully played by Estrin in correspondence play as an improvement over his loss here against Berliner. |
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| Feb-13-06 | | patzer2: <14... Rb8 15. Be2?> As <LIFEMASTER AJ>'s analysis at http://www.geocities.com/lifemaster... indicates, several IM and GM analysts and authors have indicated this is the losing move. Tim Harding at http://www.chessnetwork.com/ncn/f/h...
(scroll down to see the game at this link) also indicates this is the losing move, and suggests 15. a4! or 15. Bc6! as alternatives. However, as White's loss with 15. a4! in J Nordenbaek vs D V Pedersen, 1994 might suggest, having the theoretical advantage doesn't always translate into a win in actual play. <15...Bxf3 16. Bxf3 Qxd4+ 17. Kh1 Bxg3 18. hxg3 Rb6 19. d3 Ne3 20. Bxe3 Qxe3
21. Bg4 h5 22. Bh3 g5 23. Nd2> Although slightly favoring Black, 23. Qf3 Qc1+ 24. Kh2
Re8 25. Qa8+ Ke7  might offer White practical drawing chances. <23... g4> Black now has a strong and probably winning advantage.
<24. Nc4 Qxg3 25. Nxb6 gxh3 26. Qf3 hxg2+ 27. Qxg2 Qxg2+ 28. Kxg2 cxb6>
With an extra pawn, Berliner demonstrates excellent endagme technique in
winning this world chess correspondence championship game. <29. Rf1 Ke7 30.
Re1+ Kd6 31. Rf1 Rc8 32. Rxf7 Rc7 33. Rf2 Ke5 34. a4 Kd4 35. a5 Kxd3 36. Rf3+
Kc2 37. b4 b5 38. a6 Rc4 39. Rf7 Rxb4 40. Rb7 Rg4+ 41. Kf3 b4 42. Rxa7 b3 0-1> |
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| Mar-21-06 | | RandomVisitor: What about 12.Qe2 Be6 13.Nc3!? Nxc3 14.bxc3 Bxg3 15.hxg3 Qxh1 16.Qxb5+
click for larger viewWhite has a pawn for the exchange and play: evaluation roughly +1.20 |
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| Mar-27-06 | | RandomVisitor: Here is my analysis of the 12.Qe2 line using Rybka:
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5 d5 5.exd5 b5 6.Bf1 Nd4 7.c3 Nxd5 8.Ne4 Qh4 9.Ng3 Bg4 10.f3 e4 11.cxd4 Bd6 12.Qe2 Be6 other moves don't seem to work [12...0–0 13.fxg4 Bxg3+ (13...Nb4 14.Kd1 (14.Nc3 Bxg3+ 15.Kd1 Rfe8 16.Qxb5 Rab8 17.Qh5 Qxh5 18.gxh5 Bf2  2.85/23 ) 14...Bxg3 15.Nc3 Rfe8 16.Qxb5 Rab8 17.Qh5 Qxh5 18.gxh5 Bf2 2.90/22 ) 14.Kd1 Nf6 15.Nc3 Nxg4 16.Kc2 f5 17.Qxb5 Rab8 18.Qd5+ Kh8 1.63/19 ; 12...Bxg3+ 13.hxg3 Qxg3+ 14.Kd1 Be6 15.Qxb5+ Kd8 16.fxe4 Qg4+ 17.Qe2 Qg3 18.Rh3 Bxh3 2.54/19 ] |
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| Mar-27-06 | | RandomVisitor: 13.Nc3 [13.fxe4 Nb4 14.Na3 0–0 15.e5 Qxd4 16.Nxb5 Qxe5 17.Qxe5 Bxe5 18.Kd1 Rfe8± 0.77/18 ; 13.Qxb5+ Kf8 14.fxe4 Nb4 15.Nc3 c5 16.dxc5 Rb8 17.Qa5 Bxg3+ 18.hxg3 Qxh1± 0.96/19 ] |
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| Mar-27-06 | | RandomVisitor: 13...Nxc3 other attemps don't work either
[13...exf3 14.Qxf3 (14.Qxb5+ Kd8 15.Nxd5 Bxg3+ 16.Kd1 Qg4 17.Kc2 Qe4+ 18.Bd3 Qxd5 19.hxg3 fxg2 20.Rg1 Qxb5 21.Bxb5 c6 1.89/21 ) 14...c6 (14...0–0 15.Nxd5 Bxd5 16.Qxd5 Bxg3+ 17.Kd1 Rad8 18.Qf3 Bf2 19.Bxb5 Bxd4 20.Re1 Qxh2 21.d3 Rb8 2.47/19 ) 15.Nce4 (15.Nxd5 Bxd5 16.Qh5 Qf6 17.Bd3 Kd8 18.Nf5 Bxg2 19.Nxd6 Kc7 20.Qe5 Qxe5+ 21.dxe5 Bxh1± 1.34/21 ) 15...Bxg3+ 16.Nxg3 0–0 17.Be2 Nb4 18.Qc3 Nxa2 19.Rxa2 b4 20.Qd3 Bxa2 21.b3 Rfe8 2.05/20 ; 13...0–0 14.Qf2! a) 14.Ncxe4 Bxg3+ (14...Nb4 15.Kd1 (15.Nxd6 cxd6 16.Kd1 Bxa2 17.Qe3 Rfe8 18.Qc3 a5 19.Bxb5 Rec8 20.Qa3 Qxd4 21.Re1 Qd5± 0.91/19 ) 15...Nxa2 (15...Bxg3 16.Nxg3 Qxd4 17.Qe3 Qb6 18.Qxb6 axb6 19.d4 Nxa2) 16.d5 Bxd5 17.Qxb5 c6 18.Nf5 Qf4 (18...cxb5 19.Nxh4 Bb4 20.Nf5 Rfd8 21.Nc3 Nxc1 1.64/20 22.Kxc1 1.67/20 ) 19.Qd3 Bb4 20.Ne3 Be6 21.Nc4 Rad8 22.Qb3 1.53/20 ) 15.Nxg3 Rfe8 (15...Nb4 16.Kd1 Bxa2 17.Rxa2 (17.Qe3 Rfe8 18.Ne4 Bd5 19.Qc3 c5 20.d3 f5 21.dxc5 fxe4 22.Qxb4± 1.14/20 ) 17...Nxa2 18.Qxb5 Nxc1 19.Qc4 Na2 (19...Rfd8 20.Ne4 Na2 21.Qxa2 Rxd4 22.Bc4 1.81/20 ) 20.Ne4 Qd8 21.Qxa2 Qxd4 1.60/20 22.Bc4 1.63/19 ) 16.Kd1 Qxd4 17.Qd3 Qa4+ 18.b3 Qf4 19.Bb2 Rad8 20.Kc1 c5 21.Be2 a6 22.a4± 0.93/19 ; b) 14.Nxd5; 14...Nb4 (14...exf3 15.Nf5 (15.Nge4 fxg2 16.Bxg2 Nf4 17.Bf1 Qe7 18.d3 b4 19.Nb5 Nh3 20.Bxh3 Bxh3 21.Bg5 f6 1.45/18 ; 15.gxf3) 15...Qxf2+ (15...fxg2) 16.Kxf2 Bxf5 (16...fxg2) 17.Nxd5 fxg2 18.Bxg2 Rfe8 (18...Rae8) 19.Ne3 (19.a4) 19...Be4 20.a4 Bxg2 21.Kxg2 a6 1.63/19 ) 15.d5 (15.Kd1 exf3 16.gxf3 Rfe8 17.Bxb5 Bf5 18.d3 Bxd3 19.Bd2 Rab8 20.a3 Rxb5 21.axb4 Bxg3± 1.01/18 ) 15...Bd7 a) 15...Bf5 16.fxe4 (16.Bxb5 exf3 17.0–0 fxg2 18.Qxg2 Bh3 19.Qe4 Bxg3) 16...Nc2+ (16...Bg6) 17.Kd1 Nxa1 18.Qxf5 Bxg3 19.Bxb5 Rab8 20.b3 g6 21.Qf3 Be5 22.g3 Qe7 2.19/20 ; b) 15...Nc2+ 16.Kd1 Bf5 (16...e3; 16...Nxa1) 17.fxe4 (17.Kxc2 e3+ 18.Nxf5 Qxf2 19.Nd1 Qe1 20.dxe3 Qa5 21.e4 g6 22.Bd2 Qb6) ; 16.Kd1 (16.Ncxe4 Nc2+ 17.Kd1 Nxa1 18.b3 f5 19.Nxd6 cxd6 20.Bb2 Nxb3 21.axb3 Qb4 22.Qd4 Qxb3+± 1.03/23 ) 16...exf3 17.gxf3 Nxd5 18.Nge4 (18.Nxb5 Rfe8 19.Nxd6 cxd6 20.d4 Rab8 21.Bc4 Rb4 22.Bxd5 Rxd4+± 1.28/20 ) 18...Qxf2 19.Nxf2 Nxc3+ 20.bxc3 Bc6 21.Be2 Rad8± 1.26/21 (21...Rfe8 22.Ne4 Rad8± 1.38/22 ) 22.Ne4 Rfe8± 1.38/21 ] |
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| Mar-27-06 | | RandomVisitor: 14.bxc3 [14.dxc3 Bxg3+ 15.hxg3 Qxh1 16.Qxb5+ Kf8 17.d5 Bf5 18.fxe4 Bg4 19.Kf2 Kg8 20.Qb4 Qh5 21.Qb7 Rc8± 1.38/20 ] 14...Bxg3+ [14...0–0 15.f4 (15.Qf2 exf3 16.gxf3 Qe7 17.Kd1 Rab8 18.Ne4 Bd5 19.Rg1 f5 20.Nxd6 cxd6 21.Ba3 a5 1.89/18 ) 15...f5 16.Qf2 Bd7 17.a4 a6 18.Ba3 Bxa3 19.Rxa3 Qe7 20.Ra1 g6 21.axb5 axb5 1.93/20 ] 15.hxg3 Qxh1
16.Qxb5+ Kd8 [16...Kf8 17.d5 Bf5 18.fxe4 Bg4]
17.Qg5+ Kc8
18.Ba3 [18.Kf2 a5 (18...a6) 19.Qxg7 (19.d5) 19...Re8 (19...Rd8) 20.fxe4 Qh5 21.Qf6 Qg6± 1.40/20 ] 18...a5 19.Qxg7 Re8 20.Kf2 Qh5 21.fxe4 Qg6 22.Qxg6 hxg6 23.Bb5 Rh8 24.d5 Bd7 25.Be2 Rb8 26.Rf1 1.52/21 Looks like White can play this line (12.Qe2) with a winning advantage... |
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| Mar-30-06 | | RandomVisitor: See my chessforum for analysis of the 12.Qe2 Be6 13.Qf2!? line that is also a winner. |
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| Apr-11-06 | | RandomVisitor: I recently purchased a copy of Hans Berliner's "The System" which analyzes the suggested improvement 12.Qe2 (Walter Muir's move) and suggests 12...Be6 as Black's response, saying also that 12...O-O is not best. On page 64 he looks at 13.fxe4, saying "other moves are of no help to white". See my analysis of the suggested improvement 13.Qf2 (works better than 13.O-O analysis posted above) at User: RandomVisitor Can anyone help me locate a copy of Berliner's book "From the deathbed of 4.Ng5 in the Two Knights defense" or have a copy they want to sell? |
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| Apr-21-06 | | RandomVisitor: Just got my copy of "From the Deathbed of 4Ng5 in the Two Knights Defense (1998 edition)." Guess what? 12.Qe2 Be6 13.Qf2 is not even looked at (page 26 - the Muir variation). It appears to be an original move. See my chessformum for analysis. Evidence is offered that this busts the line (!) |
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| Apr-21-06 | | Shajmaty: <RandomVisitor> 12. Qe2 (first played by Timman in 1988?) is THE move, for sure. Nice job! |
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| Apr-24-06 | | monad: <Shajmaty: >
12.Qe2 is now the only choice given in the Junior9 opening book. Ironically offering 100% 0-1. |
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| Apr-24-06 | | RandomVisitor: 12.Qe2 O-O 13.fxg4 Bxg3+ 14.Kd1 seems to be the main line in the opening books that these chess computers use. |
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| Apr-24-06 | | RandomVisitor: <monad>This is sole game in chessgames database that features 12.Qe2:
Jan Timman vs E Arikok
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5 d5 5.exd5 Nd4 6.c3 b5 7.Bf1 Nxd5 8.Ne4 Qh4 9.Ng3 Bg4 10.f3 e4 11.cxd4 Bd6 12.Qe2 O-O 13.fxg4 Nb4 14.Kd1 Bxg3 15.hxg3 Qxh1 16.Nc3 f5 17.a3 Nd3 18.Kc2 b4 19.Nd5 b3 20.Kxb3 fxg4 21.Ne3 Rf2 22.Qxg4 Rxf1 23.Nxf1 Qxf1 24.Qxe4 Nxc1+ 25.Kc2 Qc4+ 26.Kd1 Rf8 27.d3 Nxd3 28.Kd2 Nc5 0-1 15.Nc3 or 15.Qxb5 are an improvement. |
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| Apr-24-06 | | monad: After my choice of 13.Qxb5+, it could run like this: 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. Ng5 d5 5. exd5 b5 6. Bf1 Nd4 7. c3 Nxd5 8.
Ne4 Qh4 9. Ng3 Bg4 10. f3 e4 11. cxd4 Bd6 12. Qe2 Be6 13. Qxb5+ Kf8 14. fxe4
Nb4 15. Kd1 c6 16. Qa4 Bg4+ 17. Be2 Bxe2+ 18. Kxe2 a5 19. d3 Bxg3 20. Nd2 Qg4+
21. Nf3 Bc7 22. Rf1 f5 23. Bd2 Rb8 24. a3 fxe4 25. dxe4 Qxe4+ 26. Kd1 Nd3 27.
Qc2 Nxb2+ 28. Qxb2 Rxb2 29. Ng5+ Qf4 30. Bxf4 Bxf4 31. Rxf4+ Ke8 32. Rc1 h6 33.
Nf3 g6 34. Rxc6 Rh7 35. Rxg6 1-0 |
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| Apr-24-06 | | monad: <RandomVisitor: This is sole game in chessgames database >
I know. That is why I called it 'ironic', that the Trees would incorporate it. |
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| May-10-06 | | RandomVisitor: Perhaps someone can give me feedback on this suggested improvement: 12.Qe2 Be6 13.Qf2
here is Rybka after 81 hours of analysis on 12.Qe2 Be6: 1.11 Qf2 Nb4
1.07 Qxb5 Kf8
1.06 Nc3 exf3
0.77 fxe4 Nb4
0.34 f4 Nb4 Qxe4
0.26 Na3 Bxg3+
Black can try 13...Nb4 or 13...exf3:
13...Nb4
14.Bxb5+ c6
15.Nxe4 Qxf2 (Qe7 16.a3! Nc2+ 17.Kd1 Bb3 18.Bxc6 Kd8 19.Bxa8 Nxa1+ 20.Ke2; Qd8 16.a3; Be7 16.a3) 16.Kxf2 cxb5 (Nc2+ 17.Kd1 Qxf2 18.Nxf2 Nxa1 19.Bxc6+) 17.Nxd6+ Kd7 (Ke7 18.Nxb5 Nc2 19.b3 Nxa1 20.Ba3+)
18.Nxb5 Nc2
19.d5 Bf5 (Bxd5 Nc3)
20.N1a3 Nxa1
21.Nd4 Bd3
22.Ke3 Bg6
23.d3 and the Black Knight is lost
13...exf3
14.Bb5+ Kd8
(A 14...Kf8 15.gxf3 (15.Qxf3 Rb8 16.Be2 Re8 17.Kd1
Bxg3 18.Qxg3 Qxd4 19.Qd3 Qxd3 20.Bxd3 Bg4+ 21.Kc2
Nb4+ 22.Kc3 Nxd3 23.Kxd3 h5 24.Na3 Rh6 25.Kc3 Re2
26.d3 Rc6+ 27.Nc4 Rxg2 28.Be3 a6 2.40/20) 15...Nb4
16.Na3 Bxg3 17.Qxg3 Qxd4 18.Qf2 Qe5+ 19.Qe3 Qd6
20.Kd1 a6 21.Bc4 Re8 22.Re1 Bd7 23.Qf2 Rxe1+
24.Kxe1 g6 25.d4 Kg7 26.Qh4 Re8+ 27.Kf2 h5 28.Bd2
Bf5 2.79/18;
B 14...c6 15.Bxc6 Kf8 16.Ne2! (amazing) fxg2 17.Rg1 Qxf2 18.Kxf2 Rc8 19.Bb7 or Bxd5 2.29/19
C 14...Bd7 15.Bxd7 Kxd7 16.O-O or Qxf3)
15.gxf3 Rb8
16.Be2 Nb4
17.Na3 Bxg3
18.Qxg3 Qxd4
19.Qf2 Nd3+
20.Bxd3 Qxd3
21.Qe3 Bf5
22.Qxd3+ Bxd3
23.b3 Re8+
24.Kd1 Be2+
25.Kc2 Bxf3
26.Rf1 Bh5
27.Rf2 Bg6+
28.d3 Kc8
29.Bf4 f6
30.Nc4 Rb5 and white stands better |
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May-15-06
 | | LIFE Master AJ: <patzer2> Good work, it took me about 25 minutes, playing along on my computer, to follow your analysis. <RandomVisitor> WHOA!!! Which line am I supposed to look at?? There is a TON of stuff here!!! (Great stuff, I played through a couple of the lines. They make my head swim.) I apologize to everyone. The last few days, have been almost sleepless. (My "Downloads site" got deleted, it took around ten years to build.) |
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| May-15-06 | | RandomVisitor: <LMAJ>I have consolidated it to the May 10 post. I have more analysis that I have not posted. Ignore my March 27 post for now - I think 13.Qf2 is better. |
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May-15-06
| | LIFE Master AJ: <RV> Someone e-mailed me about two weeks ago ... I would hazard a guess that they saw your posts of April 24th. I worked on the analysis a couple of times. I worked on it from this morning (just after 11) to almost 7 PM tonight. (I have posted the results of my work on my web page.) Qe2 is DEFINITELY a solid alternative to taking on b5. The variations are too complex, I don't think I could have done this in a month ... if not for the help of the computer. |
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May-15-06
| | LIFE Master AJ: http://www.geocities.com/lifemaster...
(The URL may have been given before ... but I did not see it in the last couple of pages.) |
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| May-16-06 | | blingice: Correct me, please:
12. Qe2? Bxg3+ 13. hxg3 Qxh1 14. fxg4 and white now is down material and has triple stacked pawns. What's the response to Bxg3? |
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| May-16-06 | | RandomVisitor: 12.Qe2 Bxg3+ 13.hxg3 Qxh1 14.Qxb5+ Bd7 15.Qxd5 +2.48/17 |
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| May-20-06 | | RandomVisitor: Berliner has this to say about the line 12.Qe2 O-O 13.fxg4 Bxg3 14.Kd1 in "The System", p. 65: "The most important point is that what appears to be an exchange of pieces with 12...O-O (the g4-bishop for the g3-knight) is in fact the committing of suicide. All of Black's advantages disappear for the sake of getting a king that is not really in danger into safety." Berliner claims that best after 14.Kd1 is 14...Nf6 15.Nc3 "and White wins comfortably" (From the Deathbed of 4.Ng5, p. 16). Now, if 12.Qe2 Be6 13.Qf2 favors white, then what resource does Black have? |
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May-20-06
| | LIFE Master AJ: < <RandomVisitor> "Now, if 12.Qe2 Be6 13.Qf2 favors white, then what resource does Black have?" > Good question! I would have to say the onus is now on Black to improve this whole line!!! (Would you agree?) |
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< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 4 OF 7 ·
Later Kibitzing> |
Kibitzing
sac: 10...e4