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Aug-14-05
 | | alexmagnus: 22.Kc1 a5! (Karpov has in his book "Everything about chess" a detailed analysis of this). |
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| Aug-14-05 | | ArturoRivera: what to play against f5 in the philidors defense, what is the line? |
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| Aug-14-05 | | BishopofBlunder: Geez, didn't Morphy ever win a game when he was AHEAD in material? |
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| Aug-14-05 | | khense: I'm not heavy enough to find 17...RXf2, however given that, I saw 18...QA3 instantly. Confirms my status as a low expert years ago. Also I didn't work it out after 19.C3 (of course). |
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| Aug-14-05 | | Knight13: A very nice game for the Game of the Day! :) |
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| Aug-14-05 | | patzer2: Wow! Was Morphy's sacrifice 17...Rxf2! sound? Or was it a technical mistake that passed over a clear winning move for a speculative line worth no more than a draw with best play? Bird defended very well up until his blunder 22. Kb2??, which gave Morphy a mating attack with 22...Bxb4! However, the question being debated by strong players and analysts (such as Kasparov), some 147 years after this game was played, is whether Bird could have held the draw with 22. Kc1! Initial computer analysis seems to give White a draw here, but deeper analysis indicates Black may be able to force a win after 22. Kc1! Bf5!? or 22. Kc1 a5! (see <clocked>'s commentary on page 1 of this game's Kibitzing and http://www.chesscafe.com/text/muell...). One reason this question is relevant is that Black has several alternative winning moves instead of 17...Rxf2! For example, 17...Bg4! 18. Rdg1 Bf3 19. Bxf3 Qxf3! (-1.56 @ 13 depth per Fritz 8) gives Black a decisive advantage, which Morphy no doubt could have converted to an endgame win against Bird. However, as <metriktraker> suggested earlier, that result would've soon been forgotten and would have denied us the beauty and controversy of Morphy's beautiful sacrifice 17...Rxf2! |
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| Aug-14-05 | | sharpnova: is 6. Nxe5 an improvement? i can't really tell.. it's complicated. after 6. Nxe5 dxe4 7. Qh5+ g6 8. Nxg6
white can end up a rook and 2 pawns for two minor pieces.. white can castle. black's king is in a very unsafe position.. i'm tempted to think it's an improvement..
i'm not sure the response 6. ... Qe7 does much better for black either since 7. Nc3 and white defuses with a pawn advantage.. a better center.. and better pawn structure in terms of covering castled king positions.. |
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| Aug-14-05 | | sharpnova: <InspiredByMorphy> you suggest a line that you find drawish.. but consider.. instead of 9. Qxh8. instead: 9. Qxg6+ Ke7 10. Bg5+. game instantly over
Kd7 10. Qf5+ Ke8 11. Qe5+ Kd7 12. Qxh8 |
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| Aug-14-05 | | patzer2: Without going deep into the 22. Kc1! line, here's a bit of analysis of 17...Rxf2! with fritz 8: <17...Rxf2!> Per Fritz 8, White has a technical win available with 17... Bg4 18. Rdg1 Bf3 19. Bxf3
Qxf3  . <18. Bxf2 Qa3 19. c3 Qxa2 20. b4> Black wins after 20. Qc2 Bf4+ 21. Rd2 e3 22. Bxe3 Bxe3 23. Bd3 Bxd2+ 24. Kxd2 Rxb2 or 20. Bb5 e3 21. Bxe3 Ba3 22. bxa3 Qa1+ 23. Kc2 Bf5+ 24. Kb3 Rxb5+ 25. Ka4 Ra5+ 26. Kxa5 Qxa3#. <20... Qa1+ 21. Kc2 Qa4+
22. Kb2??> Though the subject of a debate among top analysts, White has practical drawing chances after 22. Kc1! a5! 23. Qc2 Qa3+ 24. Qb2 axb4 25. Qxa3 bxa3 (According to
Mueller at the Chess Cafe site provided above, Karpov extensively
analyzed this line and determined White could force the draw from here, but Mueller and others disagree.) 26. Bg3 e3 27. Rhe1 Be6 28. Bxd6 cxd6 29. Bd3 Bg4 30. Be2 = (-0.03 @ 14 depth per Fritz 8). <22... Bxb4! 23. cxb4 Rxb4+ 24. Qxb4> No help for White is 24. Kc1 Qa3+ 25. Kc2 Qb2# or 24. Kc3 Qb3#. <24... Qxb4+ 25. Kc2 e3! 26. Bxe3 Bf5+ 27. Rd3> Black wins after 27. Bd3 Qc4+ 28. Kb2 Bxd3 29. Rd2 Qb4+ 30. Ka1 Qc3+ 31. Rb2 (31. Ka2
Bc2 ) 31... Bc4 32. Rc1 Qa3+ 33. Kb1 Bd3+ 34. Rcc2 Bxc2+ 35. Kxc2 Qxe3 .
<27... Qc4+ 28. Kd2 Qa2+ 29. Kd1 Qb1+ 0-1> and White resigned in lieu of 30. Bc1 Bxd3 31. Bxd3 Qxd3+ 32. Bd2 Qf3+ . |
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| Aug-14-05 | | kevin86: A Morphy great-maybe the greatest queen-side attack ever! |
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| Aug-14-05 | | sharpnova: <patzer2>, your line "17... Bg4 18. Rdg1 Bf3 19. Bxf3 Qxf3" being a "technical win" for white is complete garbage. after that line white is down a pawn and one of his rooks is out of commision. you tell me how that's a "technical win" for white. and don't pawn it off on fritz. i checked that line with fritz as well.. and it sees the position as -2 |
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| Aug-14-05 | | wheelchiar bandit: i can't believe morphy play the e4 e5 nf3 d6 opening and then played f5. |
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| Aug-14-05 | | patzer2: <sharpnova> "Technical win for White" is garbage indeed. Sorry about that. I meant to say 17...Bg4! is a technical win for Black (not White) and, as such, may well be supeior to Morphy's 17...Rxf2! Since -2 is above Fritz 8's -1.5 threshold for a winning advantage, I'll take your analysis as confirmation of what I intended to communicate. |
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| Aug-14-05 | | ajile: Philidor Counter Gambit. Jonathon Mestal the English grandmaster revived this line awhile ago. Very interesting and dangerous opening. |
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| Aug-16-05 | | patzer2: Does anyone want to take a crack at solving the mystery around the possibility 22. Kc1 in this game? Can White draw? Or does Black have a forced win? Under the new ChessGames.com puzzle format, (22. ?) would make for a very interesting Sunday puzzle. |
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Aug-17-05
| | alexmagnus: As I told, 22.Kc1 a5!. The further is Karpov´s analysis from his book "Everything about chess":
"Before all let us notice that after 23.Bg3 axb there is no time neither for 24.Bxd6 - 24...Qa1+ 25.Kc2 b3# nor for 24.Qb2 - 24...bxc 25.Qxb8 Ba3+ 26.Kb1 c2+ 27. Ka2 Bc1#.And on 23.Rdg1 follows 23...Bf5 24.Qc2 Qxc2+ 25.Kxc2 e3+ etc.It means white is forced to play with the queen." (continuation in the next post) |
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Aug-17-05
| | alexmagnus: "...23.Qc2. Weaker is 23.Qb2 axb 24. c4 Bf4+ 25.Kb1 e3 26.Bg3 Bf5+ 27.Bd3 (27.Kc1 b3! 28.Bxf4 dxc; 28.c5 Rb4!)
27...e2!28.Qxe2 Ra8 29.Qb2 Bxd3+ 30.Rxd3 dxc and there is no defence from c4-c3, f.x.: 31.Rb3 c3 32.Rxc3 (If the queen goes away then follows 32...Qxa1+ 33.Kc2 Qb2+ 34.Kd1 Ra1+ 35.Bc1 Rxc1#)32...bxc 33.Qb7 (33.Qxc3 Qa2+ 34.Kc1 Qa1+ 35.Qxa1 Rxa1+ 36.Kc2 Rxh1) 33...c2+ 34.Kc1 Rf8! and black wins"(continuation in the next post) |
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Aug-17-05
| | alexmagnus: "23...Qa3+ 24.Qb2. It seems that after 24.Kd2 axb 25.Ra1 bxc+ 26.Ke3 Qb4 27.Rhb1 the queen is trapped..
But here follows 27...Bf4+ 28.Kxf4 Qd6+ and 29...Qh6#"... Here I have to interrupt my quotation (it is too long), who wants to know that analysis until the end, buy Karpov "Everything about chess":) |
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| Aug-17-05 | | patzer2: <alexmagnus> So what is your conclusion. Can White force a draw after 22. Kc1? |
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| Aug-17-05 | | Boomie: Taking up <patzer2's> challenge, I nosed around the position after 22. Kc1 and could not find a winning line for black. The main line below ends in a rook and bishops of opposite color endgame which must be a draw. 22. Kc1 a5 23. Qc2 Qa3+ 24. Qb2
(24. Kd2 axb4 25. Ke1 bxc3 (-6.43/14))
24... axb4 25. Qxa3
(25. Rhe1 Bxh2 26. cxb4 Qa4 27. b5 Bd6 28. Kd2 Bf4+ 29. Kc3 cxb5 30. Qb3 Be6 31. Rg1  (-1.27/13)) 25... bxa3 26. Bg3 e3 27. Rhe1
(27. Bd3 a2 28. Kc2 Ba3 29. c4 c5 30. Bxc7 Rb2+ 31. Kc3 Rb7 32. dxc5 Rxc7 (-1.59/14)) (27. Bxd6 cxd6 28. Rhe1 (-1.14/15))
27... a2 28. Kc2 Ba3 29. c4 c5 30. Ra1 Bf5+
(30... Rb2+ 31. Kc3 (0.84/13))
31. Bd3 Rb2+ 32. Kc3 cxd4+ 33. Kxd4 Rd2 34. Rxa2 Rxd3+ 35. Ke5 Bg6 36. cxd5 Bd6+ 37. Ke6 Bf7+ 38. Kf5 Bxd5 39. Bxd6 g6+ 40. Kf4 Bxa2 41. Bxc7 Bd5 42. h4 Rc3 (42... h6 43. Bb6 e2 44. Rxe2 Rf3+ 45. Kg4 Rb3 46. Be3 (-0.77/14)) (42... Rd4+ 43. Ke5 Rd2 44. Rxe3 Kg7 (-0.80/14))
43. Bb6 (-0.82/15)
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| Aug-18-05 | | patzer2: <Boomie> Excellent try to validate drawing chances for White, and if the line goes as you indicate it does appear clearly drawish. However, Mueller in the Chess Cafe article sited above deviates from your 22. Kc1 a5 23. Qc2 Qa3+ 24. Qb2 24... axb4 25. Qxa3 25... bxa3 26. Bg3 e3 and recommends 26...Be7! instead. Mueller's line then proceeds 26... Be7! 27. Bf4 Bf5 28. Kd2 a2 29. Ra1 Rb2+ 30. Ke3 c5 31. h4 cxd4+ 32. cxd4 Bb4 33. Bxc7 Bd2+ 34. Kf2 e3+ 35. Kg3 Be4 (-2.00 @ 15 depth per Fritz 8) with an apparently winning position for Black. Do you see any improvements over Mueller's analysis here? My own intuition is that White should be able to force the draw, but I haven't found a clear refutation to Mueller's analysis (asserting a win for Black here). |
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| Aug-19-05 | | Boomie: <patzer2> 26...Be7! never occurred to me I think because I was very fond of 26...e3. I wonder if Morphy was planning Be7...probably. I am through doubting Morphy's ideas. Anyway I had to back track through white's alternatives to try to find a way out and there doesn't appear to be. I went all the way back to 17...Rxf2 and all the variations seem to lead to a winning position for black. As pointed out earlier, 17...Bg4 also wins but the rook sacrifice is infinitely more pleasing. Aesthetics counted for a lot in Morphy's day and I'm sure he added it into his calculus before choosing 17...Rxf2. If there is anyone left who doubts that Morphy would challenge today, let them look at all the analysis inspired by 17...Rxf2 and realize that he found most of this over the board. |
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| Aug-19-05 | | Kaspablanca: I think IMHO Morphy saw all those lines but he prefered 17...Rxf2, remember Morphy was an artist on the chessboard. In his famous queen sac game Paulsen-Morphy,current analisys says Morphy had a quickier way to win but he chose the prettier one. |
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| Aug-19-05 | | aw1988: I think it's pure rubbish he saw all that from Rxf2. I think he just broke off his calculations at Kc1 and trusted the inner dynamics of the chess pieces to which he was familiar. |
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| Aug-19-05 | | TheSlid: Quite right <aw1988> the clock times are not recorded, but I bet Morphy "busked it" just as you say. |
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< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 3 OF 12 ·
Later Kibitzing> |
Kibitzing
sac: 17...Rxf2