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| Oct-18-03 | | drukenknight: A French question: almost 700 games in the data base that start like this (known as Burn variation): e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. Bg5 dxe4 5. Nxe4
would you believe no one has ever played 5...Qd5!?
go ahead try it and see what you think. |
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| Oct-18-03 | | Kenkaku: 5...Qd5 6. Nxf6+ gxf6 7. Bxf6 and white stands better. |
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| Oct-18-03 | | drukenknight: 7...Rg8 |
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| Oct-18-03 | | Kenkaku: Yes, but does this demand a response on white's part? The g2 pawn is protected by the king's bishop. 8. Nf3 |
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| Oct-18-03 | | drukenknight: A moment ago you said white is better, now you want to know if the R move deserves a response. HOw should I know? that's for white to figure out isnt it, after all I am black I am trying to just stay alive. 8...Nd7 |
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Oct-18-03
 | | Eggman: Drukenknight: I believe Kenkaku's question, namely "yes, but does this demand a response on White's part?", was rhetorical. 5...Qd5 is a poor move since it causes Black to lose a pawn without compensation. |
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| Oct-18-03 | | Kenkaku: Yes, it was a rhetorical question, white still stands better after 7...Rg8 8. Nf3. After 8...Nd7 probably either 9. Be5 or 9. Bxd7. |
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| Oct-18-03 | | Wild Bard: I've got a question about nomenclature here. Is the position above (1. e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6) called the classical, or is 4. Bg5 Be7 needed before it becomes the classical? The Everyman book seems to suggest that the position in the diagram above is technically the classical, but I've seen 4. Bg5 Be7 referred to as the classical many times without any additional sub-variation name to distinguish it from the other options. What's the deal? |
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| Oct-18-03 | | drukenknight: kenk: you have a B on f6 how can you take Bxd7? (Unless I have messed up a move/typo??) double check that. Wild Bard: it seems that position above could still go into a number of French variations, MacCutheon for one, possibly a WInawer by transposition, so that it would be premature to call it the classical. |
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| Oct-18-03 | | Kenkaku: You're right, I was thinking e7 rather than d7. 9. Be5 definitely then, and if 9...f6 10. Bg3 which blocks the g2 pawn from attack by the rook, allowing development of the white bishop. A queenside pawn advance will most likely follow soon on white's part (probably c3 though I won't rule out b3 since it depends on what black plays). |
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| Oct-18-03 | | drukenknight: Yes, thanks for checking that. 9 Be5 is probably the best move here. 9...Bd6
I am playing a little bit unsoundly as black hoping to show some traps that can arise. It is black's 8th move that I am unsure about, more on that later. If you count the number of pieces developed at this pt. black has 4 pieces out and white only 2. Is this adequate compensation for the pawn? Well I dunno, but how many other openings does black get that much development for a pawn? I know, I know another rhetorical question! |
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Oct-18-03
| | Eggman: Here's the thing, Drukenknight: let's compare this to another well-known (and very sound) opening line where Black sacrifices a pawn, and perhaps it will become clear why Black lacks adequate compensation in the line currently under debate. In the Scandinavian after 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Nf6 3.c4 c6 4.dxc6 Nxc6 Black has not only developed two pieces to none for White, but he can also, after the soon-to-follow ...e5, get a space advantage in the center. White meanwhile is saddled with a backward d-pawn, and on top of that White's c-pawn prevents his light-squared Bishop from taking either the a2-g8 diagonal or the a4-e8 diagonal. In the line currently under discussion (1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Bg5 dxe4 5.Nxe4 Qd5? 6.Nxf6+ gxf6 7.Bxf6 Rg8 8.Nf3 Nd7) White can play 9.Bh4! and Black is in a bad way. Where is Black's compensation? You mention Black's lead in development, but Black will have to spend another tempo to make room to let out his light-squared Bishop, and will even then have trouble castling and therefore trouble connecting his Rooks. Plus in addition to being down a pawn Black has an isolated pawn and White meanwhile has no pawn weaknesses. 9.Bh4! is the best move, IMO. On h4 White's Bishop makes queenside castling awkward for Black (and certainly Black can't castle on the kingside), controls f6 to prevent the Knight from taking that square, and also indirectly defends the pawn g2, e.g. 9...Bd6 10.Bd3! Rxg2? 11.Bg3! trapping the Rook. Hopefully all this helps to explain why 5...Qd5? is never played. |
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| Oct-18-03 | | drukenknight: 9 Bh4! Rg4
THis is beginning to sound like a Silman storybook. |
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Oct-18-03
| | Eggman: Sir, why are you advocating that Black expose the Rook when he hasn't even completed developement yet? Surely you're not simply hoping to get off some cheap tactic, e.g. 10.h3?? Rxh4 11.Nxh4 Qe4+. A normal developing move such as 10.Be2 would perry the threat - even someone who doesn't see the threat might avoid it accidentally. If anything 10...b6 intending to fianchetto the Bishop would give White something to think about. Then Black can create threats even with objectively sound moves, e.g. 11.Bd3 Bb7 threatening 12...Rxg2. |
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| Oct-18-03 | | drukenknight: "Parry" is spelled p-a-r-r-y. |
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Oct-18-03
| | Eggman: Drukenknight, if you will leave my spelling alone I will continue my policy of politely refraining from commenting on your abysmal punctuation. ;) |
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| Oct-19-03 | | drukenknight: i feel that in the modern age punctuation simply obfuscates what is real like GM commentaries that lead nowhwere besides it is your move |
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| Mar-27-04 | | jesterco12: Why is 1.e4 e6 2.d4 Nc6 never played? What's wrong with it? |
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| Mar-27-04 | | Phoenix: It blocks out the c8 bishop is the main reason, I believe. |
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| Mar-27-04 | | waddayaplay: Maybe it is not unsound, but what is the purpose of Nc6 anyhow? If black later wants to play c5, he loses (yet) another tempo. And c5 is pretty important in most openings. Well atleast QP openings. // waddayaplay |
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| Jul-28-04 | | Marquis De Sade: what is the greatest french win (for black) of all time? |
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| Sep-17-04 | | Knight13: In this position, I would play 4. e5. |
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| Oct-05-04 | | HolyKnight: Anyone know a good line vs the Stienz Variation. I would like to play some McCutcheon games, but the Stienz scares me. |
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| Jun-15-05 | | notyetagm: <drukenknight: A French question: almost 700 games in the data base that start like this (known as Burn variation): e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. Bg5 dxe4 5. Nxe4
would you believe no one has ever played 5...Qd5!?
go ahead try it and see what you think. >
The line 1 e4 e6 2 d4 d5 3 ♘c3(♘d2) dxe4 4 ♘xe4 ♕d5!? is called the <Katalymov Variation> and is similar to your line above. This <Katalymov variation> is the subject of the SOS column of the latest New In Chess magazine. |
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Nov-29-05
 | | WannaBe: Opening Explorer in the above position, is it prudent for white to push the b pawn to b3? or let the b3 pawn be captured and chase the queen around and gain development/tempo?? Thanks in advance. |
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