chessgames.com
Members · Prefs · Laboratory · Collections · Openings · Endgames · Sacrifices · History · Search Kibitzing · Kibitzer's Café · Chessforums · Tournament Index · Players · Kibitzing
Monika Mueller-Seps vs Eva Moser
Liechtenstein op 25th (2007), Triesen, rd 9, May-19
French Defense: Tarrasch Variation. Open System (C07)  ·  0-1

ANALYSIS [x]

FEN COPIED

Get this game explained with Decode Chess
explore this opening
find similar games 1 more M Mueller-Seps/E Moser game
PGN: download | view | print Help: general | java-troubleshooting

TIP: Help with kibitzing features can be found on our Kibtizing Help Page.

PGN Viewer:  What is this?
For help with this chess viewer, please see the Olga Chess Viewer Quickstart Guide.
PREMIUM MEMBERS CAN REQUEST COMPUTER ANALYSIS [more info]

Kibitzer's Corner
< Earlier Kibitzing  · PAGE 3 OF 3 ·  Later Kibitzing>
Jul-19-13  James D Flynn: Black is a pawn down but his 2 pawns are more advanced than White’s. If he could exchange rooks in a manner that would not permit White’s K to approach closer than the d file he can promote a pawn. 54……Rf3 55.Kc2(if 55.gxf3 h3 56.a4 h2 57.a5 h1=Q 58.a6 g2 59.Rxg2(if 59.a7 g1=Q 60.a8=Q Qc1+ 61.Kb3 Qhd1+ 62.Kb4 Qd4+ 63.Kb5 Qd3+ 64.Kb6 Qb1+ 65.Ka7 Qc7+ 66.Ka6 Ra1+ 65.Kb5 Qxa8 and Black wins easily)Qxg2 60.a7 Qxf3 wins) Rf2 56.Kd2 h3 57.gxh3 Rh2 58.Ke1 g2 59.Re7+ Kf6 60.Kf2 Kxe7 61.Kg1 Rxa3 62,Kxg2 Ra3 and with K and R aginat K and 2 isolated pawns Black wins easily.
Jul-19-13  The Rocket: This is difficult? There is only one possible way for black. Found it as soon as I got a view on the board.
Jul-19-13  The Rocket: There are no tempting alternatives, and it's easy even without knowing it to be a puzzle.
Jul-19-13  morfishine: So, since White missed a draw, this would be a spoiler?
Jul-19-13  BOSTER: 54...Rf3 is really a good idea because this move encourages white king move from "a" pawn. After 55.Kc1 Rf4 and black won.
This is the difference between Rf2 and Ra4.
Jul-19-13
Premium Chessgames Member
  OhioChessFan: Rf3 suggests itself since the g2 Pawn is an overworked defender.
Jul-19-13  YouRang: I see that the game ended when black forced white into the dreaded <YouRang Position>:


click for larger view

Please observe that white doesn't have too many option left, and all those that do remain stink.

Jul-19-13
Premium Chessgames Member
  OhioChessFan: < the dreaded <YouRang Position>: >

http://i.ytimg.com/vi/GTRtscQow8U/h...

Jul-19-13  cyclon: Went late and I'm not quite sure about this, though it's very interesting. I'd try; 54. -Rf3 55. gxf3 ( 55. Kc2 Rf4 56. Kd3 [ 56. Re7+ Kf6 57. Rh7 Rf2+ 59. Kb3 Kg5 Black seems to have winning chances ] -56. -Kg6, here my 'feel' is that Black has winning possibilities ), and here;

( after 54. -Rf3 55. gxf3 ) -55. -h3 56. Re7+ Kg6 57. Re6+ ( 57. Re8? g2 58. Rh8 g1Q 59. Rxh2 Qg2+ wins ) -57. -Kg5 58. Re5+ Kf4 59. Rh5 h2 and now;

1. 60. a4 Kxf3 61. a5 ( 61. g5 g2 62. Rxh2 g1Q and g-pawn falls Black having winning chances by correct play - he should eventually win a-pawn and that ought to be winning end-game with precise play though I'm not 100% sure, maybe 80% or something like that ) -61. -g2 62. Rxh2 g1Q quite similarly.

2. 60. g5 Kxf3 61. g6 ( 61. a4 g2 and similarly than in the previous line, or 61. Rh3 Kg2 ) -61. -g2 52. Rxh2 g1Q and now White cannot play 53. Rh6 on account of - 53. -Qd4+ 54. Kc2 ( 54. Kb1 Qd1+ 55. Kb2 Qd2+ wins ) -54. -Qf2+ and now either 55. Kd1 Qf1+ 56. K- Qe2+, or 55. Kb1 Qe1+ both will loose the Rook in a couple of moves. If after -52. -g1Q 53. Rh3+ Ke2 or some other Rook move, White loses his g- pawn after which Black isolates the a-pawn with combined King's intervention and Queen checks. After a-pawn falls he should have concrete winning chances. Though I'm not sure what database says about the a-pawn situation. I'm still inclined to say that after 54. -Rf3 only Black plays for win.

Jul-19-13  cyclon: I also pondered for quite a while the game-line 55. -Rf2 and 56. -h3 FIRST, but wasn't satisfied enough with it. I chose "safer" line and would be happy if someone could say if it's incorrect or not. The dynamics in the text are indeed such that Black grabs the pawns off having similar situation than in my proposition.
Jul-19-13
Premium Chessgames Member
  FSR: <morfishine: So, since White missed a draw, this would be a spoiler?>

We're only tasked with finding the best line for the player on move. There is no doubt that 54...Rf3! is best, even though White could still have drawn if she'd kept her wits about her. So no spoiler.

Jul-19-13
Premium Chessgames Member
  FSR: It's a tragedy for White that could have been avoided if only she'd studied the Goldsby Position. As Bronstein said, "Every Russian schoolboy knows the Goldsby Position." It's sad how many chessplayers neglect that critical element of their education.
Jul-19-13
Premium Chessgames Member
  thegoodanarchist: Quite an educational finish by Black. Demonstrates how K+Q defeat K+R
Jul-19-13
Premium Chessgames Member
  OhioChessFan: <FSR: It's a tragedy for White that could have been avoided if only she'd studied the Goldsby Position. >

http://i.ytimg.com/vi/GTRtscQow8U/h...

Jul-19-13  morfishine: <FSR> Thanks! I thought a spoiler was finding an improvement on the actual game that turns a loss into a draw (or a draw into a win)...I've taken the time to brush up on the definition of a spoiler :)
Jul-19-13
Premium Chessgames Member
  Phony Benoni: <FSR> By your criterion, would there ever be a spoiler? I take today's position to be a perfect example, containing a tempting line of play that traps many solvers, but fails to achieve its purpose for a hidden reason.

The tempting line of play may or may not be the best available. The important point is that it is spoiled, and the conscientious solver needs to spot the flaw as well as the faulty combination.

And, yes, I'm reversing my statement from earlier. I wasn't very conscientious either.

Jul-19-13  BOSTER: <FSR> "Every Russian schoolboy knows the Goldsby Position".

After 54...Rf3 55.Kc1 Rf4 black can take "g4" pawn when he wants. So , you can't build the fortress when g4 pawn disappered.

Jul-19-13  TheFocus: I have heard a rumor... ah heck, I got several e-mails actually, telling me that FIDE is about to award <AJ> an honorary Endgame Study Grandmaster title because of his pioneering work on the <Goldsby Position>.

An award that is long overdue, I am sure.

Jul-19-13  TheFocus: <New in Chess> is going to give him a monthly endgame column.

Talk about finally getting your just awards. Honor. Prestige. Cash in your pockets.

Carlsen, are you listening? You might want to engage the <Florida Fischer> to help you improve your endgames. Do you really want to face Kid Curry without knowing the <Goldsby Position>?

Jul-19-13  JohnBoy: <YouRang: I see that the game ended when black forced white into the dreaded <YouRang Position>> - big deal. With black to move, from the perspective of the white player, this has long been known as the dreadful <JohnBoy> position.
Jul-19-13
Premium Chessgames Member
  ajk68: White should have lasted another 10 moves according to tablebase from the final material.

Does anybody know the principles for executing this endgame? I've studied it from time to time but have never seen a systematic exposition.

Jul-19-13
Premium Chessgames Member
  Phony Benoni: <ajk88> There's probably one out there, but it's a very difficult ending to explain because the mobility of the queen and rook make too many variations possible to easily explain the principles.

It's interesting to compare ♕ vs. ♖ with the ending ♔+♗+♘ vs. ♔. The former is actually the more common ending in our database, Endgame Explorer showing 180 examples vs. 136 of the latter. In both cases about 10% of the games are drawn, which may indicate the endings are of equal difficulty.

Every beginner's book contains a detailed explanation of executing KBN vs. K, but for Q vs. R there is often no more than a typical position with the defending king backed up on the edge of the board. How to reach that position is rarely shown.

Jul-19-13  FairyPromotion: <Phony Benoni: It's interesting to compare Q vs. R with the ending K+B+N vs. K. The former is actually the more common ending in our database, showing 180 examples vs. 136 of the latter. In both cases about 10% of the games are drawn, which may indicate the endings are of equal difficulty.>

I would say that Q v R is definitely the more difficult one. However the win percentages might be close because the best defense against K+B+N is quite trivial: Keep the King on the wrong corner. On the other hand defending the Q v R ending is much more complex, and challenging. I believe that all 2600+ GMs know how to win the K+B+N v K ending, while (I'm speculating) probably half of them don't know the Q v R ending perfectly, and against tablebase defenses their win percentage would probably be poorer than 90%, maybe even way poorer.

Jul-19-13  Patriot: 54...Rf3 looks good, threatening 55...Rf2. 55.gxf3 h3 and the pawn duo will create a queen.
Jul-20-13
Premium Chessgames Member
  FSR: <Phony Benoni> As I understand "spoiler" as used in these parts, it refers to an apparent solution that is actually bad. So there isn't really a solution, but rather a non-solution: if you consider the tempting line but figure out why it's bad, and accordingly reject it, you get credit. It doesn't matter what, if anything, you think is the "real" best move. The example I'm thinking of is 11.Bxh7+?? in P Charbonneau vs H A Hussein Al-Ali, 2008.

The present game is not like that. 54...Rf3 is not a blunder; it's Black's best winning chance. By force, it leads to an ending where Black has a queen against a rook and pawns and White has to try to find a way to erect a fortress and draw. Seps didn't succeed in doing so. (Houdini 3 actually rates 54...Rf3 as -1.94 and evaluates it as winning for Black, while giving the second-best move 54...Rd3 a -0.42 (small advantage to Black) rating. It turns out that Houdini's assessment of 54...Rf3 is wrong, but I don't think many people would argue that it's not Black's best winning try. Certainly no one in his/her right mind would give it a question mark.)

Jump to page #    (enter # from 1 to 3)
search thread:   
< Earlier Kibitzing  · PAGE 3 OF 3 ·  Later Kibitzing>

NOTE: Create an account today to post replies and access other powerful features which are available only to registered users. Becoming a member is free, anonymous, and takes less than 1 minute! If you already have a username, then simply login login under your username now to join the discussion.

Please observe our posting guidelines:

  1. No obscene, racist, sexist, or profane language.
  2. No spamming, advertising, duplicate, or gibberish posts.
  3. No vitriolic or systematic personal attacks against other members.
  4. Nothing in violation of United States law.
  5. No cyberstalking or malicious posting of negative or private information (doxing/doxxing) of members.
  6. No trolling.
  7. The use of "sock puppet" accounts to circumvent disciplinary action taken by moderators, create a false impression of consensus or support, or stage conversations, is prohibited.

Please try to maintain a semblance of civility at all times.

Blow the Whistle

See something that violates our rules? Blow the whistle and inform a moderator.


NOTE: Please keep all discussion on-topic. This forum is for this specific game only. To discuss chess or this site in general, visit the Kibitzer's Café.

Messages posted by Chessgames members do not necessarily represent the views of Chessgames.com, its employees, or sponsors.
All moderator actions taken are ultimately at the sole discretion of the administration.

This game is type: CLASSICAL. Please report incorrect or missing information by submitting a correction slip to help us improve the quality of our content.

Featured in the Following Game Collections[what is this?]
tallike's greatest Endgames
by tallike
54...? (Friday, July 19)
from Puzzle of the Day 2013 by Phony Benoni
Here is a fave!
from Austrian Games by waustad
Endgame with rooks from move 54
from Mrcomputer55's favorite games by Mrcomputer55
54...Rf3! to create 2 con pp
from 96e The Unbearable Lightness of rook endgames 5 by whiteshark
54...? (July 19, 2013)
from Friday Puzzles, 2011-2017 by docjan
54...? (July 19, 2013)
from Friday Puzzles, 2011-2017 by Phony Benoni
54...? (Friday, July 19)
from POTD French 2 by takchess
3star Blacks 54th move reminds basics of R & P!
from Tactical Problem solving of Star level by FLAWLESSWIN64

Home | About | Login | Logout | F.A.Q. | Profile | Preferences | Premium Membership | Kibitzer's Café | Biographer's Bistro | New Kibitzing | Chessforums | Tournament Index | Player Directory | Notable Games | World Chess Championships | Opening Explorer | Guess the Move | Game Collections | ChessBookie Game | Chessgames Challenge | Store | Privacy Notice | Contact Us

Copyright 2001-2021, Chessgames Services LLC