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< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 3 OF 3 ·
Later Kibitzing> |
Aug-01-14
 | | al wazir: 16. Qe2 and 17. Re3 looks pretty winning to me. |
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| Aug-01-14 | | Conrad93: I got this puzzle without even analyzing the position. I considered 16. Qa4 as the second candidate move, but 16. Ne6+ was just too obvious. |
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| Aug-01-14 | | M.Hassan: "Difficult"
White has a pawn for a Knight.
16.Ne6+ Bxe6
17.dxe6 d5
18.Bxd5 Ra7
19.Bg2 to clear way for Queen to d8
19.........Ke7
20.Qd4 Rc7
21.Qb6 Kf6
22.exf7+ Rc6
23.f8=Q+ Kg6
White should win beyond doubt
Time to check |
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| Aug-01-14 | | Mating Net: I agree with <al wazir> <16. Qe2 and 17. Re3 looks pretty winning to me> especially because Black can't develop his Q side to cover the e8 square without giving back material. |
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| Aug-01-14 | | gofer: White is spoilt for choice; Ne6+, f4, h4, Qa4, Qf3. But One move screams out to be played as it causes
an immediate mate threat that causes black significant issues... <16 Rae3 ...>
Creating an escape square gives back black's piece advantage and gives white control of the
back rank, not an option...
16 ... f5/f6/g6/g5
17 Re8+ Kg7
18 Rxf8 
Defending against Re8+ is difficult!
16 ... Qd8?
17 Nc6! Nxc6
18 dxc6 (19 Qxd6+ is terminal for black)
16 ... Bd7
17 Ne6+ fxe6 (17 ... Bxe6 18 dxe6 is much worse for black) 18 dxe6 (19 Qxd6+ is terminal for black)
<16 ... Nf6>
<17 Ne6+ fxe6>
<18 dxe6 ...>
White gives up yet another piece to open up attacks on Pd6 and Ra8. This is where things become a little confusing; "what is black's defence? and what is white's response". All very interesting, but not exactly clear-cut. 19 ... d5?
20 cxd5!?
~~~
Hmmm, so I was meant to play Ne6+ immediately? That was "Difficult"! So what does Fritz
say Mr <Once>... |
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| Aug-01-14 | | diagonalley: 16.N-K6+ looks to be the most immediate way for white to increase the pressure on black's horrible position... but the continuations appear to be many (too many for yours truly to calculate) ...methinks this is "very difficult" |
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Aug-01-14
 | | Once: <gofer> Your Rae3 seems fine. After about ten minutes, Fritzie rates four moves as better than plus 2 and several others just below +2. The best are:
16. Ne6+ (+2.64)
16. c5 (+2.38)
16. Rae3 (+2.24)
16. Qc2 (+2.2)
Then a long long tail of also pretty good moves. 16. Qe2 currently comes in at number 14 (!) with +1.32. In human mode, I was attracted to 16. Ne6+ fxe6 17. dxe6 
click for larger viewNow white threatens Rf3+, Bxa1 and Qxd6+. If 17...Ra7 18. Qxd6+ and the Nb8 falls. |
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| Aug-01-14 | | morfishine: <16.Ne6+> and White wins Its hard to imagine Black seriously thinking he could defend this position what-with 5 pieces arrayed along the 8th rank. In any case, White can gain entrance through the front door, back door, side door, sliding door, or just about any door he wants...wait, there
aren't any doors at all !? Besides that, there aren't any walls... ***** |
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Aug-01-14
 | | Penguincw: When I saw this position, I thought about forking the king and queen on e6. Unfortunately, that square was guarded twice, but if the knight was captured, dxe6 comes with a discovered attack. |
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| Aug-01-14 | | gerryrulloda: What was 8....b4 for? |
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| Aug-01-14 | | dfcx: I figured the following moves,
16.Ne6+ fxe6 17.dxe6
threatening both Bxa8 and Qxd6
17...d5 18. Rf3+ Nf6
I did not see 19. h4! followed by Qxd5 winning |
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Aug-01-14
 | | beenthere240: 10. ...Bc8 is spectacular. |
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| Aug-01-14 | | kevin86: Black game crumbles under the pressure! |
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Aug-01-14
| | Once: <gerryrulloda: What was 8....b4 for?> In the Sicilian (1. e4 c5), white is generally going to attack on the kingside and black is going to grab territory on the queenside. The plan for white is usually to grab black's king by the throat in the early middlegame. Black usually castles short. Meanwhile black wants to push on the queenside. If white castles long, black will pursue him on the queenside, often with an exchange sac (rook for Nc3). If white castles kingside, black may try to win an endgame on the basis that he has marginally better pawns - after white plays d4 and black recaptures with his c pawn, black has two pawns in the centre to white's one. Or sometimes black attacks on the queenside with the plan of turning through ninety degrees and going after the white king on the kingside. 8...b4 is part of this general black plan of queenside expansion. To be sure it is a pawn move when black ought to be developing pieces, but black argues that the white knight has to move from c3 so black isn't losing a tempo. Against slow white play, black will develop his pieces and either play for a pawn storm on the queenside or stick a rook on c8 to pressurise c2. Fritzie doesn't rate the move as the best, but he doesn't laugh into his lagerbeer about it either. Personally, I would have preferred to develop a piece with 8...Nf6, but then I don't play the black side of the Sicilian. |
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| Aug-01-14 | | brainzugzwang: Saw at least the opening moves of the puzzle combination, but is there a specific reason Black played 16... fxe6 as opposed to 16...Bxe6? The bishop doesn't seem to be doing anything useful anyway. |
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| Aug-01-14 | | patzer2: <David2009><But after 17...Ra7 18.Qxd6+ Qe7 19.Qxb8 Qc7 and Black probably survives to win. In this line, 18.Rf3+ Nf6 19.Qxd6+ Re7 20.Qxb8 may be stronger, but Black can defend with Qc5> Ran 17...Ra7 through Fritz 12, and the result indicates 17...Ra7 is no better at saving Black's game than 17...d5. Move-by-move analysis with Fritz gives 17... Ra7 18. Qxd6+ Qe7 19. Qxb8 Qc7 20. e7+ Nxe7 21. Rf3+ Ke8 22. Qb3 Bb7 23. Rfe3 Bxg2 24. Rxe7+ Qxe7 25. Rxe7+ Rxe7 26. Kxg2 Rf8 27. Qa4+ Kf7 28. Qxa6 (+6.25 @ 22/43 depth on a 2.1GHZ dual core processor) with an easy win for White. |
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| Aug-01-14 | | patzer2: <brainzugzwang: Saw at least the opening moves of the puzzle combination, but is there a specific reason Black played 16... fxe6 as opposed to 16...Bxe6> I think Black saw he was busted after 16. Ne6+! and thought 16...d5 offered more opportunity to survive.
After 16... Bxe6 17. dxe6 d5 18. exf7 Nf6 19. h4 Qg4 20. Re8+ Kxf7 2 1. Qxg4 Nxg4 22. Rxh8 (+11.34 @ 21/44 depth per Fritz 12), Black is still lost. |
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| Aug-01-14 | | thegoodanarchist: With 5 pieces on their home squares, Black is punished for his lack of development |
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Aug-01-14
 | | agb2002: White has a pawn for a knight.
The position of Black's royal family and the defenseless rook on a8 invite to play 16.Ne6+ but after 16... fxe6 17.dxe6 Ra7 18.Qxd6+ Qe7 (18... Re7 19.Qd8+ Re8 20.Qxg5 + - [Q+2P vs 2N]; 18... Ne7 19.Qd8#) 19.Qxb8 Qc7 Black has a knight for three pawns and it is not clear how to proceed. Another option is 16.Nb5, trying 17.Nc7 with the double threat 18.Re8# and 18.Nxa8, 16... Qd8 (16... axb5 17.Rxa8 will win material) 17.c5 and the initiative seems to compensate the material. For example, 17... dxc5 18.d6 axb5 19.Rxa8 Bd7 20.Qd5 Bc6 21.Rxb8 Qxb8 22.Qxc6 looks winning. I think I'd play 16.Nb5.
That's all I can do today. |
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| Aug-01-14 | | Cheapo by the Dozen: It's a little late in the day to post this, but anyway: For a while I thought the move was 16 R(a)e3, because of how the follow-up Qb3 could tie Black in knots. But 16 ... Qd8 seems to shut down the White attack, and 16 ... Nf6 looks like it probably works as well. Over the board I'd play 16 Nb5, but I haven't calculated that to a better outcome than White being down piece for two pawns, but having an outpost knight on d6 to go with the e-file and other positional advantages. A key line is
16 Nb5 Qd8
17 c5 dc
18 d6 axb5
19 Rxa8 Nd7
20 Bb7 Nb6
21 Qg4 Bxg4
22 Rxd8#
Some alternatives are:
16 ... axb5 17 Rxa8, and White will soon gain another piece. 16 ... Qf6 17 Nc7, forking the rook and the e8 square. |
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| Aug-01-14 | | Cheapo by the Dozen: Oh, crumb. It took me quite a while to see the discovered attack on the rook if the d-pawn moved, and after I did I never circled back to reexamine Ne6. Total whiff. |
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| Aug-01-14 | | David2009: am coming very late to today's POTD:
click for larger view
(Vallejo-Pons vs I Nepomniachtchi, 2008 White, 16?)
<agb2002: [snip] 16.Ne6+ fxe6 17.dxe6 Ra7 18.Qxd6+ Qe7 19.Qxb8 Qc7 Black has a knight for three pawns and it is not clear how to proceed.> Exactly. Here's the position reached with <agb2002>'s defence:
click for larger view
There is a lot of play left in the position. Black presumably unravels with g6 and Kg7. |
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| Aug-01-14 | | patzeroni: hi Folks,
after 16...fxe6 17.dxe6 Ra7 18. Rf3+ Nf6 19.e7+ Rxe7 20.Qxd6 is a clear win for White imo, or did i overlook something? After 20...Nc6 21.h4 Qa5 22.Rfe3 Black seems lost because 22...Qd8 could even be answered by 23. c5!
Thanks in advance! |
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| Aug-01-14 | | makaveli52: Ian faithfully followed all the rules of the opening: move each piece at least twice, develop the queen, avoid castling. No idea why he got into a position on move 16 where he is up a piece and yet any move by white wins. |
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| Aug-02-14 | | patzer2: <David2009> The position you give in your last post occurs after 17... Ra7 18. Qxd6+ Qe7 19. Qxb8 Rc7 (not 19... Qc7). The Fritz 12 line refuting 19...Qc7 is in my first post here. From the posted position after 19...Rc7, White wins with 20. Rd1! when play might continue 20...Nf6 21. Rad3 Ne8 22. Rd8 g6 23. Rxc8 Kg7 24. Rd7 Rxd7 25. exd7 Qxd7 26.Qe5+ Kh6 27. Qxh8 (+17.40 @ 19/46 depth per Fritz 12). |
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< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 3 OF 3 ·
Later Kibitzing> |
Kibitzing
sac: 9.Nd5