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< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 15 OF 15 ·
Later Kibitzing> |
| Jul-30-08 | | Ulhumbrus: <Atking: A bit worried on my previous suggestion I took my little chess pocket to confirm. 13.Ng3 g6 14.Bh6 Nb6 15.Ne4 Bb7 16.g5!? Nxd5 (16...Bxd5 17.Nf6+ BxNf6 18.BxBd5 NxBd5 19.QxNd5 wins the B after both Bxg5 or Be7 by 20.Qc6+ the idea which worried me) 17.Nf6+ BxNf6 18.BxNd5 Bxg5 19.BxBb7 BxBh6 20.BxRa8 QxBa8 is more than playable. Therefore the same concept with the gambit 16.c4! Nxc4 17.g5!? Nb6 18.0-0 must be explored..> On 18...Nxd5 19 Nf6+ Bxf6 20 Bxd5 Bxg5 does not work because on 21 Bxb7 Bxh6 22 Bxa8 Qxa8 does not gain a tempo by attacking White's R on h1, so that White has time for 23 Qxd6. On 21...Bxd5 21 Qxd5 Bxg5 22 Bxg5? Black has 22...Qxg5 with check, giving White no time for Qxa8. However 22 Qc6+! wins. However Black can avoid all this (after 13 Ng3 g6 14 Bh6) by 14...Bg5, not waiting for Ne4 to threaten Nf6+. Then on 15 Bg7? Rg8 White's QB is trapped and on 15 Bxg5 Qxg5 Black seems to have the advantage. Perhaps White's mistake is to castle on the King side, after having advanced the g pawn to g4 and so having exposed the White King to attack there. In the game Fischer vs Julio Bolbochan, 1962 Fischer castled on the Queen side In the game Fischer vs Reshevsky, 1962 Fischer did not castle on the King side but kept his King in the centre. In the game Fischer vs Najdorf, 1962 Fischer castled on the King side, but he had not advanced the g pawn to g4. |
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| Jul-30-08 | | vanytchouck: Arcice >
As we have discussed earlier about wether 33...Kg8 was still winning or not. Here is the evaluation of Fritz 10 after more than 17h20 of "analysis" : =(0,00) 34.b7 Re8 35.Qc2 Qg3 36.Rh1 Qf3 37.Rh2
 (-0,53) 34.Qc2 Kg7 35.b7 Rg8 36.b3 Qxd5 37.a4 Rd4 38.Nxd4 Qxd4 39.Qc7 Qd1 + 40.Kg2 Qd5+
All the other moves are evaluated below  1,41 (as 34. b4). |
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| Jul-30-08 | | Atking: <Ulhumbrus:> It's the second time you make a copy of my analysis adding some of your comments. Maybe you try to explain my point of view in a better English. Maybe you are not agree with. I don't know. As you noted the point of "my" 16.c4! is to make the previous line I gave more effective: 2 tempos Nxc4~Nb6 and light squares d1-a4-e8 opens. (But indeed I'm not sure that in this last line Black has to take in d5). <Perhaps White's mistake is to castle on the King side, after having advanced the g pawn to g4 and so having exposed the White King to attack there. In the game Fischer vs Julio Bolbochan, 1962 Fischer castled on the Queen side> Important to note that Fischer never lose a time by playing g3 then g4. A precious tempo. <However Black can avoid all this (after 13 Ng3 g6 14 Bh6) by 14...Bg5, not waiting for Ne4 to threaten Nf6+. Then on 15 Bg7? Rg8 White's QB is trapped and on 15 Bxg5 Qxg5 Black seems to have the advantage.> Well it's not obvious to me. 16.Ne4 Qe7 17.g5 0-0 18.h4 f5! could be what you have in mind but 17.a3 Bb7 18.axb axb 19.0-0 (19...0-0 20.Qd2) 19...RxRa1 20.Qxa1 Bxd5 21.Qa5 is playable and dynamic with 3 results 1-0 1/2 0-1 possible. |
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| Jul-30-08 | | Ulhumbrus: <Atking: <Ulhumbrus:> It's the second time you make a copy of my analysis adding some of your comments. Maybe you try to explain my point of view in a better English. Maybe you are not agree with. I don't know. > I could leave it out, but copying it makes it easier to refer to, otherwise one has to refer back to past messages. <<However Black can avoid all this (after 13 Ng3 g6 14 Bh6) by 14...Bg5, not waiting for Ne4 to threaten Nf6+. Then on 15 Bg7? Rg8 White's QB is trapped and on 15 Bxg5 Qxg5 Black seems to have the advantage.> Well it's not obvious to me. 16.Ne4 Qe7 17.g5 0-0 18.h4 f5! could be what you have in mind but 17.a3 Bb7 18.axb axb 19.0-0 (19...0-0 20.Qd2) 19...RxRa1 20.Qxa1 Bxd5 21.Qa5 is playable and dynamic with 3 results 1-0 1/2 0-1 possible.> Actually what I had in mind was ...f5 but it may succeed even after 17 g5, when Black does not get a pawn on f5. If Black plays ...f5 too soon, White may have Qh5+ eg 17 a3 f5 19 gf gf 19 Qh5+ Qf7?? 20 Nxd6+ After 17 a3 Bb7 18 ab ab 19 0-0 0-0 20 Qd2 Black has an interesting pawn sacrifice: 20...b3 21 cxb3 f5 22 gf gf 23 Ng5 Nc5. Black threatens ...Nxb3 and the White Q is tied to the defence of the N on g5. |
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| Jul-30-08 | | acirce: <vanytchouck> What happens if you enter 35..Kg7 after 34.b7 Re8 35.Qc2 ? My Fritz 9 rather quickly indicates a huge advantage for Black, and the lines seem to make sense.. |
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| Jul-30-08 | | vanytchouck: < acirce:<vanytchouck> What happens if you enter 35..Kg7 after 34.b7 Re8 35.Qc2 ? My Fritz 9 rather quickly indicates a huge advantage for Black, and the lines seem to make sense.. > In fact the computer has already take this move into account as after 21h10 of "analysis", the first line don't change but the 2nd line is now: (-0,49):34. Qc2 Kg7 35. b7 Rg8 36. a4 Qxd5 37. b3 Rd4 38. Nxd4 Qxd4 39. Qc7 Qd1+ 40. Kg2 Qd5+ The other lines are rated below (-1,66).
I'll make it now analyse from 34...Kg7.
Can you give me the winning line according to Fritz 9 ? |
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| Jul-30-08 | | Atking: <After 17 a3 Bb7 18 ab ab 19 0-0 0-0 20 Qd2 Black has an interesting pawn sacrifice: 20...b3 > Yes but again we must decide for the more positional 21.c4 as on 21...f5 there is 22.Qb4 xBb7 and xd6 Again blindefold I'm not sure of myself but that looks good enough for White. |
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Jul-30-08
 | | JointheArmy: I'm very impressed by 19. b3 by Dominguez. I've never seen that idea before. |
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| Jul-30-08 | | apf123: another najdorf by dominguez |
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| Jul-30-08 | | Ulhumbrus: <Atking: Yes but again we must decide for the more positional 21.c4 as on 21...f5 there is 22.Qb4 xBb7 and xd6 Again blindefold I'm not sure of myself but that looks good enough for White.> 22...Bxd5 23 cxd5 fxe4 24 Bxe4 Nc5 and 22...Bxd5 23 Qxd6 Qxd6 24 Nxd6 Bxg2 25 Kxg2 Ra2 both seem promising for Black.
White has an alternative to all this. He can prepare to castle on the Queen side eg 13 Ng3 g6 14 Be3 0-0 15 Qd2 Ba6 16 0-0-0 and now Black has disturbed his K side pawns while White's Queen side pawns are still intact. |
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| Jul-30-08 | | Atking: <Ulhumbrus: <Atking: Yes but again we must decide for the more positional 21.c4 as on 21...f5 there is 22.Qb4 xBb7 and xd6 Again blindefold I'm not sure of myself but that looks good enough for White.> 22...Bxd5 23 cxd5 fxe4 24.RxRa8 RxRa8 25.Qxb3 White has no problem (Nc5 Qb5 and b4). |
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| Jul-31-08 | | Ulhumbrus: Atking: <22...Bxd5 23 cxd5 fxe4 24.RxRa8 RxRa8 25.Qxb3 White has no problem (Nc5 Qb5 and b4).> One possible improvement for Black in this variation is 23...Rxa1 24 Rxa1 fxe4. Now on 25 Qxb3 Qf7 26 Rf1 Nf6 27 Rd1 Nxg4! 28 hxg4 Qxf2+ 29 Kh2 Rf3 30 Qb8+ Kg7 31 Qxd6 Qg3+ 32 Kh1 Rf2 33 Qe7+ Kh6 34 Rg1 Qxg4 and wins because hite's Q is unable to prevent both 35...Qh4+ and 35...Qh5+. On 23...Rxa1 24 Rxa1 fxe4 25 Bxe4 may be better.However on 25...Qf7 26 Rf1 Nc5 Black sems to have the advantage and may gain eventually a winning King side attack eg after ...h5 |
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| Jul-31-08 | | Atking: If you exchange the Rook <Ulhumbrus> true f2 is weakened but white has a file. So instead to take back the pawn e4 or b3 which are almost condamned, 25.Ra7 sounds better 25...Qf7 26.Kh1 then what else? After 26...Qxf2 27.RxNd7 Qxb2 28.Qb7 is at least an easy draw. |
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| Jul-31-08 | | Ulhumbrus: <Atking> After 27..Ra8 (instead of 27...Qxb2) if White still plays 28 Qb7 (??), 28...Ra1+ 29 Kh2 Qf4 is mate.
Another alternative for Black is 25...Qf6 instead of 25..Qf7 which avoids getting the N pinned. Then on 26 Kh1 Nc5 prevents Qb7. |
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| Jul-31-08 | | Atking: <Ulhumbrus: <Atking> After 27..Ra8> 28.Qxe4 no mate. |
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| Jul-31-08 | | Ulhumbrus: <Atking: After 27..Ra8> 28.Qxe4 no mate.> White does seem to escape mate. The other alternative for Black is 25...Qf6 instead of 25..Qf7 which avoids getting the N pinned. Then on 26 Kh1 Nc5 prevents Qb7. |
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| Jul-31-08 | | Atking: <Ulhumbrus: <Atking: After 27..Ra8> 28.Qxe4 no mate.> White does seem to escape mate.> I will say that Black is forced to go for the perpetual... 28...Ra1 29.Kh2 Qg1+ 30.Kg3 Re1 31.Ra8+ and black king should stay in the corner 31...Kf7? 32.Qf3 mates. So you suggest now <25...Qf6> isn't the same? 26.RxNd7 Qxf2+ 27.Kh1 Ra8 28.Qxe4 again white is okay. |
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| Aug-02-08 | | Ulhumbrus: <Atking: So you suggest now <25...Qf6> isn't the same? 26.RxNd7 Qxf2+ 27.Kh1 Ra8 28.Qxe4 again white is okay.> Actually I suggested it in my message before the previous message. Yes, White escapes here as well. On 13.Ng3 g6 14.Bh6 Bg5 15 Bxg5 Qxg5 16.Ne4 Qe7 17 a3 Bb7 18 ab ab 19 0-0 0-0 20 Qd2 b3 21 c4 f5 22 Qb4 makes a counter-attack on Black's QB. Suppose that Black removes this counterattack with tempo before White plays Qb4? On 21...Ba6 22 Rfc1 f5 Qhite can no longer attack a piece by 23 Qb4. Another way to play ..Ba6 is before ...b3: 20...Ba6?! 21 Rfc1 f5 however this may be not as good because it leaves the b pawn exposed to attack. |
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| Aug-02-08 | | Atking: On 13.Ng3 g6 14.Bh6 Bg5 15 Bxg5 Qxg5 16.Ne4 Qe7 17 a3 Bb7 18 ab ab 19 0-0 0-0 20 Qd2 b3 21 c4 Ba6 <Ulhumbrus> White can play the same 22.Qb4 and White is totally ok. Indeed this line seems playable, nearly equal with as I said some posts before, 3 results possibles which is of course (If it is your point) fine for Black. |
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| Aug-02-08 | | Ulhumbrus: <Atking: On 13.Ng3 g6 14.Bh6 Bg5 15 Bxg5 Qxg5 16.Ne4 Qe7 17 a3 Bb7 18 ab ab 19 0-0 0-0 20 Qd2 b3 21 c4 Ba6 <Ulhumbrus> White can play the same 22.Qb4 and White is totally ok.> Qb4 attacks not only the B on b7 but the pawn on d6 as well.This suggests that instead of 20..b3 21 c4 Ba6, 20...Ba6 is necessary if Black is to avoid Qb4 in reply. On 20...Ba6 21 Rfc1 f5 White has no time for 22 Qb4. One variation is 22 gf gf 23 Ng3 Nc5 24 Qxb4 f4 25 Ne4 f3 26 Nxc5 dxc5 27 Qb6 Qg7 28 Qe6+ Kh8 29 Qg4 Qxg4 30 hxg4 fxg2 wining a piece. However that is only one variation. |
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| Aug-03-08 | | Atking: <Ulhumbrus> In your line you gave, you don't use the strengh of Bg2 (The long diagonal offered by Bb7-Ba6) I mean 20...Ba6 21.Rfe1 f5 22.gxf gxf 23.Ng5 Nc5 24.Ne6! (You had probably miss this point) 24...NxNe6 25.dxNe6 e4 26.f3! Qxe6 27.fxe f4 28.Ra5! as on 25...f3 26.Bxf3! I saw somewhere a beautifull combination from you. So I know you understand when someone take a line, giving up another one which was usefull until now, then the counter attack uses to be strong (For examples Bb7-Ba6 (giving up a file and a8-diagonal) or f pawn going to attack the King when his own King is weakened or more subbtle, the d4 square after the pawn e5 came to e4). Your previous 20...b3 looks better to me and probably nearly equal. Why not admit the position is quite balanced here. I think it's a fair result. Frankly I will be pleased to play both side but with a very little preference for Black. But it's more and less a matter of taste than an objectif assumption. I mean I like King Indian formation... (Here without Bg7 it could be a nuance). |
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| Aug-03-08 | | Ulhumbrus: Atking: Indeed I did not consider Ne6 and White's B on g2 properly.
After 28 Ra5 you have given 25...f3 26 Bxf3! Perhaps what you really meant was 26...f3 27 Bxf3. You say that you saw a beautiful combination somewhere. Do you remember any of its features? After 28 Ra5 28...f3 29 Rg5+ Kh8 30 Qd4+ Qf6 31 Qxf6 Rxf6 White can't play 32 Bxf3, but this requires examining further. In the variation which you have given one interesting alternative to 26...Qxe6 is the pawn sacrifice 26...d5. One variation is 27 Qxd5 Bb7 ( now Black's QB switches to the long diagonal and skewers the White Q to the points e4 and f3) 28 Qe5 exf3 29 Qg3+ Qg7 30 Qxg7 Kxg7 31 e7 Rfe8 32 Bf1 Kf6 and Black's King is ahead of White's King in development. On 13.Ng3 g6 14.Bh6 Bg5 15 Bxg5 Qxg5 16.Ne4 Qe7 17 a3 one alternative 10 17 ...Bb7 is 17...bxa3 18 Rxa3 because the a5 pawn prevents Qb4. On 18...0-0 19 0-0 f5 20 gf gf 21 Ng3 Nf6 gets ready for ...f4 although the a5 pawn is pinned eg 22 b4 Qg7 |
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| Aug-03-08 | | Atking: <Ulhumbrus: ...You say that you saw a beautiful combination somewhere. Do you remember any of its features?> Yes a recent one. It was the end of the game Alekseev vs Carlsen in Biel you suggested the Qb1 first and only after Bxg5 Bc5+ Be3 Qd3. I don't remenber if you did it alone or by exchange with other kibitzers (Myself I saw Qb1~Qh1 Qg2+ quite kickly but refused the idea under the impression that the counter sacrifice in g7 will mate first) But you insisted and indeed the use of the diagonal as most as possible is very logical and beautifull Qb1 first and come back in d3 very elegant. As to answer to your other question, of course its not 28.Ra5 then 26...f6 but 29...f3 30.Bxf3! with advantage to White. |
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Aug-04-08
 | | maxi: What an interesting game! |
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| Aug-09-08 | | Ulhumbrus: <Atking: <Ulhumbrus: ...You say that you saw a beautiful combination somewhere. Do you remember any of its features?> Yes a recent one. It was the end of the game E Alekseev vs Carlsen, 2008 you suggested the Qb1 first and only after Bxg5 Bc5+ Be3 Qd3. > The game was E Alekseev vs Carlsen, 2008
I suggested 35...Qb1 and when another kibitzer, amateur05 suggested 36 Bxg5, I suggested 36...Bc5 in reply to Bxg5. Then another kibitzer, 4tmac gave the analysis (I have corrected the move numbers)" 37 Be3 Qd3 38 Qxd3 cxd3 38 Bxc5 (the pawns can't be stopped anyway!!)
38 ... d2 and the pawn queens!! I based this on diagrams by notyetagm and analysis by Ezzy but don't blame them if I messed something up!" |
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Kibitzing
