|
< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 23 OF 23 ·
Later Kibitzing> |
| Dec-06-07 | | Shams: is it obvious to everyone that black had to trade queens on move 32 instead of playing ...Qxg4+<?> it's not to me. |
|
Dec-06-07
 | | pawn to QB4: Well said, shams, your honesty is a refreshing blast; a more usual form is to put it through the computer and then tell us you wonder why Cheparinov thought so long. 33.Ng2 is my guess, with Qxc5 coming up, and White's Q and B are a strong attacking force, against the Q side pawns more than the King. If, for example, Carlsen were to get the queens off a few moves after that, the Black K side pawns look much less dangerous than the White Q side pawns, especially since in the line Chaparinov chose he was bound to pick up one of them to compensate for his leaving g4 & g6 on the board.
Similarly, I found it interesting to try to figure out why Carlsen played 23.e5 rather than f5, which I, and I suspect most people, would have had at least a good look at. Attempts to explain this, during the game, using our own brains rather than Rybka and co, appear to have fallen short... |
|
| Dec-06-07 | | frogbert: not playing f5 was actually possible to calculate, as the line was short: f5 be5! (threatens nh2) nhf3 bf4 qe2 (to protect d2) bxd2 nxd2 ne5 (threat on the queen) and black can move his bishop afterwards. i might have missed something though :o) |
|
| Dec-06-07 | | frogbert: i meant nf4 above (not ne5), but when i checked with the engine, it turns out that white is nearly winning after qh2 if i play nf4. however, instead of nf4, there is qg3+ for black, which is better for black. :o) |
|
| Dec-06-07 | | Ezzy: M Carlsen (2714) - I Cheparinov (2670) [A48]
World Chess Cup 0:01:33–0:00:33 (5.1), 05.12.2007
1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 g6 3.Bg5 Bg7 4.Nbd2 d6 5.e4 0–0 6.c3 c5 7.dxc5 dxc5 8.Bc4 Nc6 9.0–0 Qc7 10.Qe2 h6 11.Bh4 Nh5 12.Rfe1 Bg4 13.Qe3 g5< Novelty. 13...b6 has been played before> 14.Bg3 Nxg3 15.hxg3 b6 16.Nh2 Bh5 17.g4 Bg6 18.g3 Rad8 19.f4 Nd4 <Oh the temptation to triple fork all whites major pieces> 20.Rac1< Carlsens ideal plan would be 21 f5 22 e5 but Cheparinov will not allow that> 20...b5 21.Bf1 <21 Bd5 seems more active because with the d file now closed to the black rook, white would threaten 22 cxd4 and if 11...Bxd4 12 Qxd4 and black can't play12...cxd4 because the queen is pinned on the c file and white is a piece up. But who am I to say what Carlsen should do with his bishop. His Bf1 move against Adams was a winning plan retaining the bishop pair and winning a nice endgame> 21...gxf4 22.gxf4 Ne6 23.e5 f5 24.exf6 Rxf6 25.f5 Ng5 26.fxg6 Re6 27.Qf2 Be5 <Threatening the all powerful 28...Bg3 and black is winning material> 28.Rxe5 Qxe5< Black still threatens the nasty 29...Rf8 >29.Ndf3 Nxf3+ 30.Nxf3 Qf4 31.Re1 Rxe1 <[31...Qxg4+ 32.Bg2 Rxe1+ 33.Qxe1 some say was a slightly better alternative]> 32.Nxe1 Qxf2+ 33.Kxf2 Rd2+ 34.Ke3 Rd1 35.Ke2 Ra1 36.Bg2 c4 <[36...Rxa2?? 37.Bd5+]> 37.a3 Rb1 38.Be4 Rxb2+ 39.Nc2 Kg7 40.Ke3 Rb3< Fritz prefers 40...e5 stopping Kd4 or Nd4> 41.Kd2 Kf6< This seems to give Carlsen too much activity> 42.Nd4 Rxa3 43.Nxb5 Ra5 44.Nc7 <Threatening 45 Ne8+ and the pawn is gonna queen >44...Kg7 44..<.Rg5 seems more active >45.Ne6+ Kh8 46.Ke3 Ra1 47.Kd4 a5 48.Bc6 a4 49.Be8 Rg1 50.g5 a3 51.Bf7 Rxg5 52.Nxg5 hxg5 53.Bxc4 Kg7 54.Kd3 Kxg6 55.Kc2 g4 56.Kb3 Kf5 57.Kxa3 g3 <This should lose after 58 Bd5 [57...e5 58.Bf1 e4 59.c4 e3 60.Kb3 Kf4 61.c5 g3 62.c6 e2 63.Bxe2 g2 64.c7 g1Q 65.c8Q Qe3+ Is a draw]> 58.Bf1 e5??< [58...Ke4 59.Bg2+ Kd3 60.Kb3 e5 61.c4 e4 62.Bf1+ Kd2 63.c5 e3 64.c6 e2 65.Bxe2 g2 66.c7 g1Q 67.c8Q Kxe2 Draw] >59.Kb3 <[59.Bg2 e4 60.Kb3 Ke5 61.Kc4 wins]> 59...Kf4??< Black now has lost a tempi in the pawn race [59...Ke4 60.Bg2+ Kd3 61.c4 e4 62.c5 e3 63.c6 e2 64.c7 Is a draw]> 60.Bg2 Ke3 61.Kc4 Kf2 62.Be4 1–0A great chess battle, but with some bad time error mistakes in the endgame. Cheparinov must be gutted, but chess is also about time management as well. 99% of chess around the world is played at this time control so everybody is in the same boat.. I suppose if you want near perfect chess then you should play correspondence chess.. Who is to say that if this game was a 7 hour time control they still wouldn’t be in time trouble. Over the board chess is adapting to the rules, and not many players get a chance to play 7 hour time controls, so players should be familiar with these shorter time controls. Can this young man go all the way. Wouldn’t it be fantastic! I bet Norway is going crazy. |
|
Dec-06-07
| | pawn to QB4: Nice one frogbert. I got Qg3+ then Nf4 myself, but only because it looked an attacking sequence. I didn't see that playing Nf4 first wasn't a good option. Let's say you and I would have seen it all after Carlsen replied to our 25...Bxd2 with 26.Nxd2. Of course, Cheparinov had to see it 4 moves earlier, viz that he could play 22...Ne6 because 23.f5 wasn't an option, and he probably saw it before 20...b5, which leaves the Q side exposed if you get forced to play a later ...Nc6. Not as easy as some imply when they tell us Fritz gives +0.43 and suggest it's all obvious. |
|
| Dec-06-07 | | TrueBlue: Cheparinov is not much older than Carlsen |
|
| Dec-06-07 | | TrueBlue: and yes, Bulgaria will go crazy if he wins it |
|
| Dec-06-07 | | Arkham: 4 year at that age, means a lot. |
|
| Dec-06-07 | | cotdt: <Arkham: 4 year at that age, means a lot.> What matters is that the player continues to improve, not just be really precocious while young but stop improving after a certain age. Players like Kamsky and Ponomariov were extremely strong kids back in their day, but look at them now. They are nobodies. |
|
| Dec-06-07 | | TrueBlue: I believe both have potential. I believe Cheparinov has been improving in the last years, will bee above 1700 for the first time in January. |
|
| Dec-06-07 | | chessmoron: You mean 2700. |
|
| Dec-06-07 | | Jim Bartle: Kamsky and Ponomariov are nobodies? You have pretty elite standards for "somebodies." But your overall point is good, cotdt.
If you want some entertaining reading, go back to the opening pages of Carlsen's page. |
|
| Dec-06-07 | | Hesam7: Cheparinov could have forced the following line: 34...Rxb2 35 Nd3 Rc2 36 Nxc5 Rxc3+ 37 Kd4 Rg3 38 Be2 Kg7:
click for larger viewHere White has to lose one of the g-pawns and Black should be able to draw. |
|
Dec-06-07
 | | Eggman: <<Players like Kamsky and Ponomariov were extremely strong kids back in their day, but look at them now. They are nobodies.>> Kamsky will never be a nobody. What he did in 1994-1995 earned him his place in history. Anyway the fact that he no longer (at the moment?) enjoys such a lofty status is not a good example: he did retire at the age of 22, after all. |
|
| Dec-06-07 | | Jim Bartle: Plus Kamsky would deserve a place in history based only upon his game one win over Kramnik in their 1994 match... |
|
| Dec-06-07 | | M.D. Wilson: "cotdt: ... Players like Kamsky and Ponomariov were extremely strong kids back in their day, but look at them now. They are nobodies." I don't think anyone in their right mind could call Kamsky and Ponomariov "nobodies". |
|
Dec-06-07
 | | tamar: thanks <Hesam 7> For some reason, I assumed Black would try 35...Rxa2, but 35...Rc2 is much stronger. As the game showed, the c pawn is dangerous, and its elimination greatly hampers any winning attempts. |
|
| Dec-07-07 | | Atkins: Yes <Tamar> we saw a great game yesterday. I assume that Carlsen knew he get an advantage but he was not sure about the best way to make it definitive. Many diagrams are possibles from the moves 35 and 48... but I understand your feeling. For the last 10 moves I don't want debatte. That's clearly not perfect but Carlsen was already in a time pressure when he moved his King in d3 for a Kxa3 and Bf1. An interesting idea indeed. Enough unusual to make his opponent thinking about and get himself in time pressure. I think they played their moves with the time increment 1 move to 30 sec. After 3 hours of a hard struggle you have a blitz. But in all White was always better. Today I'm quite sure that Cheparinov will try all to win. |
|
Dec-07-07
| | tamar: <Atkins> All in all, a great game. But too many errors mar the finish. |
|
| Dec-07-07 | | newton296: <Players like Kamsky and Ponomariov were extremely strong kids back in their day, but look at them now. They are nobodies.> kamsky just played in the candidates. And thats after taking a break from chess to get a law degree.
And pono won a world championship. I think calling them nobodies is a bit strong. no? |
|
| Dec-07-07 | | Shams: <is it obvious to everyone that black had to trade queens on move 32 instead of playing ...Qxg4+<?> it's not to me.> I'm in good company--neither was it obvious to GM Dorian Rogozenko, analyzing on chessbase.com: http://chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp...
"31...Rxe1. In such positions the side with the rook usually aims to exchange pieces, since in endgame the rook with a pawn has better chances to fight against two minor pieces. Nevertheless it deserved attention 31...Qxg4+ 32.Bg2 Rxe1+ 33.Qxe1 and now interesting is 33...Rd6 with complicated play. White can't activate his minor pieces due to his vulnerable king. 32.Nxe1 Qxf2+ 33.Kxf2 Rd2+ 34.Ke3..." |
|
Dec-07-07
| | tamar: Why Carlsen chose 54 Kd3? instead of 54 Ke5, from Henrik Carlsen's blog: <He looked at Ke5 thinking it would be winning until he saw a ghost after Kf4 (e5+, but it doesn't work for black after all). Having spent all his remaining time, he played Kd3? in panic without having calculated it at all.
The rest of the ending was played with increments only, and Magnus was not able to calculate properly.> That makes sense, and is heartening in a strange way. Carlsen did not want to play 54 Kd3, but did not see 54 Ke5 all the way through. <Peligroso Patzer> you were right after all. <In hindsight, it may seem obvious that 54. Ke5 is the best way to prevent a later ... e5, but Carlsen just had too little time to complete the necessary calculations, including, for example, what I believe was White's biggest technical problem in this endgame: how to deal with a possible ... g4 at some point that would require the White King to move towards that pawn, thereby allowing ... e5.> |
|
| Dec-08-07 | | Atkins: <That makes sense, and is heartening in a strange way. Carlsen did not want to play 54 Kd3, but did not see 54 Ke5 all the way through.> Yes that's pity because then the game would be almost perfect from White side. I can suggest that after the move 40 the increment could be of 1mn or more instead of 30sec just to not spoil a difficult ending... |
|
| Apr-07-08 | | ACAM: "Players like Kamsky and Ponomariov were extremely strong kids back in their day, but look at them now. They are nobodies." If none of you will report him, we will. |
|
 |
|
|
< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 23 OF 23 ·
Later Kibitzing> |
Kibitzing
sac: 28.Rxe5