|
< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 2 OF 2 ·
Later Kibitzing> |
| Mar-25-13 | | Abdel Irada: <18. Kf1 seems quite worse as pointed in my line D above. Overall, it is best to decline the sac. It would take great guts (or blissful ignorance :) to venture into the sac line and try to save the game thereafter.> After looking over the variations for some time, I am firmly convinced that (a) White cannot accept the sac, and (b) she can't decline it. Either way, defeat is only a matter of time. Also, I find that 17. ...Nxd4† wins the queen as follows: 18. Ke3, Bf4†! 19. Kxf4, Qf2† 20. Nf3, Nxf3 21. Qxf3, g5†. White can deviate, but to do so only loses faster. |
|
| Mar-25-13 | | Bartimaeus: <After looking over the variations for some time, I am firmly convinced that (a) White cannot accept the sac, and (b) she can't decline it. Either way, defeat is only a matter of time. Also, I find that 17. ...Nxd4† wins the queen as follows: 18. Ke3, Bf4†! 19. Kxf4, Qf2† 20. Nf3, Nxf3 21. Qxf3, g5†. White can deviate, but to do so only loses faster.> In your line, i would probably go with 19. Kxd4 and take my chances in surviving on the Queenside. Bleak but maybe triable. With regards to your general observation, i would counter that its a case of maximizing your chances of avoiding loss. By declining the sac, White maximizes the chances of doing that whereas accepting the sac doesn't. If Black plays perfectly, then the game is anyways lost after 13. Nxg6? which is an inaccuracy from White. But as a practical player who would want to fight till the odds are insurmountable, declining the sac seems the most tenable approach to prolonging the fight. So even though, given correct play, defeat would be inevitable in both cases, by choosing the correct defense, white forces the opponent to likewise play his best to obtain the desired result. In this game, declining the sac was the correct choice by White. |
|
| Mar-25-13 | | zb2cr: 33. ... Qxf1+; 34. Kxf1, Ne3+ and Black is a piece up to go with her initial two Pawns' advantage. |
|
| Mar-25-13 | | Abdel Irada: <In this game, declining the sac was the correct choice by White.> That's like saying arsenic is the correct choice of food seasoning in place of cyanide. :-D |
|
| Mar-25-13 | | Abdel Irada: <In your line, i would probably go with 19. Kxd4 and take my chances in surviving on the Queenside. Bleak but maybe triable.> No chances worth trying: It's mate in five. |
|
| Mar-25-13 | | mig55: Fischer vs Benko, 1965 A nice game... |
|
| Mar-25-13 | | Abdel Irada: <Fischer vs. Benko, 1965> *is* a good game, but I'm not sure what it has to do with this one. |
|
| Mar-25-13 | | Bartimaeus: <That's like saying arsenic is the correct choice of food seasoning in place of cyanide. :-D> "Looks nice" analogy missing the point of the post |
|
| Mar-25-13 | | Chris321: Well what can be said bout the sac an follow up...its easy the difficulty level,i think Fisher could solve such puzzles before his birth!
But some other puzzles later in the week becomes tougher to solve,some of them are real hard nuts to C-R-A-C-K. |
|
| Mar-25-13 | | Abdel Irada: <Bartimaeus>: To me, there *is* no practical difference; White loses inevitably either way. But this may be one of those cases where, since neither of us can convince the other, we will simply have to agree to disagree. |
|
| Mar-25-13 | | Bartimaeus: <Abdel Irada> The point i was trying to make was with respect to the choice of moves one makes OTB. With respect to the end result, yes, white has lost here whichever be the choice. But OTB if i, as White had got into a bit of trouble after the opening (like in this game) and then if black were to make this sac, then i have to choose whether to accept / decline the sac. In order to try and fight in this game, to me, the choice seems to be to decline the sac. I know that i still might lose but atleast i would be testing Black's technique and giving myself some chance. By accepting the sac, I do neither. Its in that sense that i meant that declining the sac was the correct choice by White. If this still seems unconvincing, then ok, lets agree to disagree. |
|
| Mar-25-13 | | Abdel Irada: Yes, I do know exactly what your reasoning was, and agreed, declining the sac was the best practical chance. However, it doesn't strike me as a very good chance, although perhaps it seems worse than it is because of the psychology of the position. It is mentally very hard to regain one's equilibrium after falling into such a tactical trap, and having to decline such a sac feels like a confession of defeat. |
|
Mar-25-13
 | | patzer2: The demolition 14...Nxf2!! wins a pawn with decisive advantage. After <14...Nxf2! 15. Bxf2 Rxf2 16. Nf3> This is forced, as worse is 16. Kxf2? Qh4+, 
click for larger viewwhen play might continue 17. Kg2
(17. Ke2 Nxd4+ 18. Ke3 Bc5! 19. Ne4 dxe4 20. Bc4+ Kh8 21. Kd2 Nf3+ 22. Kc1 Qg5+ 23. Kb1 Nd2+ 24. Kc1 Nxc4+ 25. Kb1 Nd2+ 26. Kc1 Rd8 27. c3 Nf3+ 28. Kb1 Rxd1+ 29. Rxd1 e3 30. b4 e2  ) 17...Qg3+ 18. Kf1 Qxh3+ 19. Ke2 Nxd4+ 20. Kf2 Qh2+ 21. Kf1 Bg3 
click for larger viewwith mate to follow within four moves.
<16... Bg3!> An essential followup! <17.Rf1> This is also a practically forced best reply. <17...Rxf1+ 18. Bxf1 Qf6> . From here, Black's strong play keeps a decisive grip on the entire game. Toward the end, White could prolong the outcome with 33. Qg2 Bf4 , instead of allowing Black to end it with a neat Knight fork tactic after <33. Nd5? Qxf1+ 34. Kxf1 Ne3+ >. However, even with 33. Qg2 Bf4 putting up more resistance by White, the win for Black is still assured. |
|
| Mar-25-13 | | snakebyt: ...Qxf1+ 34 KxQ Nf1+ Queen sac and a fork! |
|
| Mar-25-13 | | mistreaver: Monday. Black to play. Very easy. 33?
33 ...Qf1+
34 Kxf1 Ne3+
and
Nxc2 leaves black a piece up.
I regonized this pattern easily since i missed a forced win in a tournament game
(i could have even won a rook, not only a piece).
1/1 |
|
| Mar-25-13 | | MountainMatt: A bit o' the old sac-and-fork. 33...Qxf1+ 34. Kxf1 Ne3+ |
|
Mar-25-13
 | | kevin86: 33...♕xf1+ 34 ♔xf1 ♘e3+ regains the queen to gain a piece-note that the knight prevents the white king from attacking the bishop-so the extra piece is secured |
|
Mar-25-13
 | | chrisowen: Cockles and muscled it's plain,
jaffabled in to see que ink 33...Qxf1+ gaff raw l in g5 my five point oh, kxf1 ne3+ Ke2 Nxc2 in daffy duck f1 gain bug lady 34.kxf1 really in light all over it is look in bead yes it now in e3, bicycle chain reaction to mask knight? |
|
| Mar-25-13 | | Alex56171: 33... Qxf1+ 34.Kxf1 Ne3+. As <kevin86> very well observed, the knight prevents the white king from attacking the bishop. So the white queen can be taken next and black wins a piece. |
|
| Mar-25-13 | | Patriot: 33...Qxf1+ 34.Kxf1 Ne3+ 35.Ke2 Nxc2 |
|
| Mar-25-13 | | bischopper: Qxf1 Kxf1
Ne3 and black wins |
|
| Mar-25-13 | | Abdel Irada: <bicycle chain reaction to mask knight?> I've often wondered that.
But one would have to be careful not to get the rook caught in one's derailleur. |
|
| Mar-25-13 | | talsqueen: child's play. so UN-inspiring. UN-stimulating. |
|
| Mar-25-13 | | Abdel Irada: <talsqueen: child's play. so UN-inspiring. UN-stimulating.> This game inspired and stimulated the UN? |
|
| Jun-03-13 | | The Last Straw: The United Nations. Yep. :)
(I'm not serious) |
|
 |
|
< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 2 OF 2 ·
Later Kibitzing> |
Kibitzing
sac: 33...Qxf1+