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James A Leonard vs Thomas Loyd
"Doubting Thomas" (game of the day Jul-19-2007)
New York, USA (1861), New York, NY USA
Italian Game: Evans Gambit. Mieses Defense (C52)  ·  1-0



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Premium Chessgames Member
  keypusher: <Interesting game....the Ba5 line is dubious. The best move after

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Bc5 4. b4 Bxb4 5. c3

is 5. ... Bd6!

Find a counter to that move! I would not have found it except I let my computer run for ages...I must add that is the best move my free Komodo found but I feel it makes sense. Albeit the move is "counter-intuitive"...

Be interesting if someone can find something to disprove that idea. Perhaps it is also a load of cobblers but it seems solid. Black is preparing perhaps to fianchetto the white-squared Bishop and so on.>

5....Bd6 has been around for a long time. It's been called the Stone-Ware Defense after a couple of Boston players. Pillsbury used it to great effect at Hastings 1895 (Schiffers vs Pillsbury, 1895), and it seems to be rather in style these days. But putting your bishop in front of the pawn has some obvious drawbacks.

<....the Ba5 line is dubious> If you mean that 5....Ba5 is dubious, well of course that is codswallop. It will probably be the most popular defense as long as the Evans Gambit is played.

I know that Botterill liked the particular line Black played in this game, though I don't remember what he said about 10.Ng5. I did OK with 10.Ba3 in the opening in S Thomson vs S Hosea, 2009, though <Open Defence> was too strong for me in the long run.

May-24-17  sneaky pete: <keypusher> Botterill (Open Gambits, page 66) doesn't mention 10.Ng5 .. at all. His main lines are 10.Qb3 .. and 10.Ba3 .. and he notes that 10.Bg5 .. was played once by Keres.
May-24-17  Walter Glattke: Of Course, 6.d3 Nf6 is better, but dangerous for human players, who are not computers. 6.d3 Nf6 7.Qb3 0-0 8.Ng5 Na5 9.Nxf7 Nxb3 10.Nxd8+ Kh8 11.axb3 Rxd8 12.Ba3, and this test brings not -0,50 for white. 7.-Qe7 8.Ba3 good for Computers and strong players.
Premium Chessgames Member
  keypusher: <Walter Glattke: Of Course, 6.d3 Nf6 is better, but dangerous for human players, who are not computers. 6.d3 Nf6 7.Qb3 0-0 8.Ng5 Na5 9.Nxf7 Nxb3 10.Nxd8+ Kh8 11.axb3 Rxd8 12.Ba3, and this test brings not -0,50 for white. 7.-Qe7 8.Ba3 good for Computers and strong players.>

<Iwer sonsch>

I posted a reply at Bird vs Pillsbury, 1895, where 5....Bd6 was played.

May-24-17  WorstPlayerEver: I guess I was just scared of the open position.
May-24-17  Walter Glattke: After 8.-Ne8 9.0-0 0-0 10.d4 there is a dangerous attack again, white may get his gambit pawn back, even if stockfish vs. komodo play here.
May-24-17  gars: 29)Re4 seems to be checkmate, as <Dionysius> says, because the g5 pawn is black and, as far as I know, a black King can't take a black Pawn.
Premium Chessgames Member
  Dionysius1: Wow <Richard Taylor>. What is it with you and Jesus Christ? What did he ever do to you? Or maybe you're plastered.
May-24-17  Oroboros: 27...Kd5 28.Rd1+ Bd4 and Black gets to safety
May-24-17  Moszkowski012273: NO need for 22.Qh5... 22.NxR... is quite winning.
Premium Chessgames Member
  keypusher: <Walter Glattke: After 8.-Ne8 9.0-0 0-0 10.d4 there is a dangerous attack again, white may get his gambit pawn back, even if stockfish vs. komodo play here.>

I can't follow your lines. They make no sense to me.

5...Bd6 6.d3 Nf6 7.Qb3 0-0 8.Ng5 Qe7 and now what?

9.Ba3 Bxa3 10.Nxa3 d6 and Black has an extra pawn and a better position.

As far as I can tell, 6.d3 is just weak. Probably why there are no examples in the database.

Premium Chessgames Member
  Richard Taylor: <Dionysius1: Wow <Richard Taylor>. What is it with you and Jesus Christ? What did he ever do to you? Or maybe you're plastered.>

You didn't appreciate my drollery? Are you a bible basher? We get a lot of those trying to convince us the world is ending and how JC gave his life and all that nonsense.

'Like Jefferson, he went through the Bible cutting out all the accounts of miracles...' Daniel Tammet in his book about numbers talking about Tolstoy...and some of his his essay on Tolstoy's 'War and Peace'.

The real problem with the God Squad is that they are so near infinitely boring...

Added to that I hate the whole idea. Sacrifice of one's son for a being (us) who are inherently evil? I cant buy into that. It is a very cruel religion like Judaism and its off-shoot the Moslem religion.

What a load of pathetic drivel it all is...There isn't even any proof of the existence of a God of any kind. Once we confirm that we can get into our religion...I like the idea the US Indians had of a Great Spirit.

Before most of them were exterminated by Christians either Spanish or American...

Plastered? I don't drink.

Premium Chessgames Member
  Dionysius1: What drollery? All that without alcohol as an excuse? Crikey.
Premium Chessgames Member
  Richard Taylor: Dearest <Dionysius> please tell me what is unfunny about this:

"A load of bollocks all that biblical stuff. Jesus Christ was a black skinned hippy flower child with a long black and dirty beard...He never washed and stank which is why the Romans and the others gave him the chop."

I am clearly not a believer so I am making a droll remark. Tell me what your problem is with it. Are you devout? You have the wrong handle. Dionysius preceded JC....

Don't get me wrong some of the stuff in the Bible is interesting and I am not what I call a "hard atheist" (I actually think religion or some kind of gnostic or mystical belief is necessary to society and will probably always exist, but not necessarily a belief according to some organized group, I think the mystery of consciousness or why there is something rather than nothing etc is too deep for humans or church people etc to ever comprehend: I think these ontological or fundamental questions are inherently unknowable but still fascinating):....But I cant accept that the Bible is a very clear guide to anything or the Koran or any of the other religious books or writings.

I understand people are or can be brainwashed or "swayed" into believing these things though. My sister is big on religion and even went to try to convert her variant of Bible bashing whatever it is....come on <Dionysius>, lighten up and get with it man...., remember you have all those crazy sex-starved women going beserk over your cult...they got so horny and crazed that as they masturbated over you they tore Orpheus into pieces or whoever it was interrupted their rites...get into some sex and witchcraft....

But as I say, I don't drink, I might be crazy but I don't drink...

Premium Chessgames Member
  ChessHigherCat: <Richard Taylor: Are you a bible basher?> I'm not shocked by your (anti)religious views but as an erstwhile English teacher it's my duty to point out that you're a "bible basher" (a severe critic), the opposite is a "bible thumper" (a preacher who emphasizes each threat of fire and brimstone by thumping on his bible). Twenty lashes with a wet noodle!
Premium Chessgames Member
  Richard Taylor: <ChessHigherCat: <Richard Taylor: Are you a bible basher?> I'm not shocked by your (anti)religious views but as an erstwhile English teacher it's my duty to point out that you're a "bible basher" (a severe critic), the opposite is a "bible thumper" (a preacher who emphasizes each threat of fire and brimstone by thumping on his bible). Twenty lashes with a wet noodle!>

First I actually am not opposed to religion. My views are NOT anti-religious. But I take your point on that, my jollity was misinterpreted....I might get blown up like those in France...but they kind of put their heads in the lion's mouth...I am not an active satirist as such although I have my Swiftean moments...

Bible basher in NZ is or was used in my youth about those who are vigorously for pushing their Christian beliefs.

A bible basher could indeed been seen either as someone who thumps the bible hard thus is indeed your "bible thumper"...

Here is the definition from 'The New Zealand Dictionary' ed by Elizabeth & Harry Orsman (before I quote it my parents are English so I also use quite a few English expressions which kiwis nowadays don't use, unless, like myself , they are very well read, or read a lot and acquire a lot of useless information):

bible (lower case is used on each entry)

As the first element of derogatory combinations bible-banger, -basher, -thumper; [these portmanteau words are in bold]

denoting an outspoken religious zealot or vigorous preacher of usually fundamental Christian belief; often, in a weakened sense, any minister of religion.

However it could be said that I was "bible bashing or thumping" ....

I refuse the twenty noodle lashings...

I refer you to Dudley Moore and Peter Cook (as Derek and Clive) whose deep insights into life and religion can be found on YouTube...

For example on Cook's inquiry re JC to Dudley (Derek I presume), Dudley opines:

"He was a bit toooo.. goody goody"

They soon establish that Jesus Christ's top half was Holy and the lower human. They then prove that Derek, in fact, is married to Jesus Christ.

For anyone such as yourself with an inquiring mind re religion or even language this would be enlightening....

Premium Chessgames Member
  ChessHigherCat: <Richard Taylor> The old sense of humor about religious matters in "enlightened liberal society" has fallen by the wayside, and even the word "liberal" has become pejorative.

It's all a minefield (or suicide bomber field) now. For the purposes of the present forum, suffice it to say that God, if he exists, is irrelevant, because he is unrated and doesn't even have a single game in the database, with the possible exception of "Godwin", which may be a coy pseudonym, in the correspondence games.

Premium Chessgames Member
  Richard Taylor: <ChessHigherCat> Yes...I have to say that we have reached strange times. I would argue though that there is, or they might be argued there is, a rationale: insofar as these things can be explicated.

I just read Terra Nullius by Sven Lindqvist which is a trip through Australia by the author and his history of the places he sees with particular attention to the near extermination of the aboriginal people. Now I am reading 'Exterminate all the brutes' which is also very good. It is in Africa...Linqvist's general point is that Imperialism laid the foundations of the Holocaust. It didn't cause it, but it is, seen in the light the history -- our history -- and in fact he includes Sweden his own country in the equation as like the US they refuse to sign an article that would give rights to land of they dealt to people in their own land....I preceded these books with a reading of 'Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee' which is a sad tale also...and we know about the Spanish in South American and indeed in the US until about 1848...

Now there is no direct connection between these general processes and the recent terrorist attacks where madmen jump out stabbing with knives, or kill lots of young people (who have no knowledge of this history) but Lindqvist and Pilger who also writes about his own country (and the NZ Maori were, if not exterminated, driven off their lands and so on and there were wars, some massacres on both sides and mainly a lot of unjust dealings although we had only one treaty which is now in law and means that we have two official languages in NZ (apart from sign for the deaf) that is Maori and English....

But, I am myself dubious of any notions of "progress" in any direction: religious, socialistic, moral, techological: for me there is change only....

I think humans need religion or at least something more than say Freud or Dawkins rather lifeless non-belief...I like reading Nietzsche though, his ideas are interesting, he was, as you may know, not anti-Semitic, his ideas I think were essentially humanist, a kind of late Rennaisance thing but going heavy on Dionysius...!

Yes, God, he is dead: or was he ever alive...Big Pawn is one of those fanatics but there are the fundamentalists. I understand them. I understand in some ways suicide bombers where, say, a nation is deeply on a back foot: the Vietnamese may have been justified in using it as a weapon...

But as the reaction to the present dis - ease increases, and anger etc the fundamentalists of various religions will gain ground...Wars and invasions or punitive actions will only increase the actions of the disaffected. Building walls only worsens things...

There are no guarantees about humans but it is possible that, overall, despite some awful things, the better side (as we feel it is, we can philosophise it into some high moral ground: we have to get the Israelis to retreat, recompense all those people we all colonised and crapped on and are still doing so: in Australia they keep the detention camps that are close to being like Nazi concentration camps, and throughout the world there is a huge exploitation of the people in general from whom or by whom the anger arises, albeit they have latched onto religion and extreme methods...

...As well as suicide bombers there is a revival of White Supremacism etc.....

I don't know the answers, the satires fall on deaf ears wherever they are directed. But we all have to think as human beings. We gather together and struggle to protect what we deep down know to be "good"...But we also need to know history.

We have to keep a sense of humour and compassion (I was wary of those terms once but I have grandchildren, and...): so I wouldn't continue to attack Christ ....and I am prepared to listen whereas the Big Pawns of the World and others are intractable...the suicide people are lost to us, caught up in a kind of religious-political fanaticism: in the absence of a strong working class or Marxist orientated response, many working class people are turning to fundamental religion as a kind of 'objective correlative', a framework: in some cases they are energized, paradoxically, at first by compassion, and when they see villages bombed or hear of them or they may be from Palestine where war is almost constant; they become angry. Like those in Conrad's 'The Secret Agent they move toward insanity (that is a great book and relevant as is 'Heart of Darkness'...they are the obverse of 'Mr. Kurtz' (represents say King Leopold of Belgium, but really the whole direction of our Imperialist history which led to the "great" wars then on)...There is a complex causational thing but then at a certain point these monsters that we, Frankenstein European Civilization, have produced turn on us. We have to take evasive or other action but we have to keep in mind how it is a function always of (complexly) history, our history. The problem indeed of The Other that Kapucinski wrote about in a booklet...

Premium Chessgames Member
  Richard Taylor: All that said, I used to play correspondence chess. It is in some ways, or was, better than OTB chess...but Godwin, he could be the man we are looking for....

Some things I like from the bible, I like the stories, and I recently read Pilgrim's Progress, but I like such things as "Father forgive them for they know not what they do." I read that when I was a teenager. My father had a book called 'The Mature Mind' and I felt very grown up for a few weeks reading it and he invoked that. This was written years ago and was rather perhaps over optimistic.... in Beckett. 'I cant go on, cant: I'll go on.' We go on in any case. And Wittgenstein, answering the mystery of why we go from say 1000 to 1001 to 1002 (it stymied Russell and Whitehead etc)...and knowing like Hobbes and Hume that it was a language problem, he concludes in his book on logic and maths, that we do it because that is the way we are!

Godwin is clearly Godd...that is J. F. Godd, who lives in 14A Morris Street, Ekatahuna, NZ. Bloody good joker he is too. Not a bad chess player. A bit too goody goody though at times....!

Premium Chessgames Member
  ChessHigherCat: <Richard Taylor> That's a coincidence, I just watched a documentary last night about Captain Cook, including his landing on NZ and confrontation with the Maoris ( I liked the first 30 minutes before she lapsed into the inevitable drivel about how he really must have been a brutal pig to his wife because she burned his correspondence or something.

I was taught to blame myself and the West for all the miseries of the world, too, but it's really a very dangerous thing to excuse terrorists (many of whom are billionaires and adherents to colonialist, theocratic, slave-owning, female-oppressing creeds) on the grounds of poverty, colonizing, theocracy, etc. A brainwashed religious maniac is a brainwashed religious maniac and excusing/granting him immunity has the same effects as refusing to apply a vaccine to a virus.

Premium Chessgames Member
  Richard Taylor: There is a book called 'The Age of Wonder' by Richard Holmes which shows the role Banks played in the exploration with Cook (and plotting the transit of Venus etc) despite being an aristocrat he learned the Island peoples' languages. It covers the founding of the Royal Society and science and poetry also Holmes is a very good writer on those kinds of things. Cook was less warm despite being more working class shall we say. Banks loved the women and was right into them!

But their is no question of blaming. In a complex sense Lindqvist asks this question. The resultant of what is happening now is from history. No need to hate yourself but be aware of the complexities.

The terrorist actions are a function of the situation we have in the world now. It is a complex of religion, politics etc. The billionaires and slave owners are mainly in the 'West' but the world is much more complex as we are entering a period when the majority of people are non-European and will push for changes. Australia and Britain have not handled things well. NZ for example takes more refugees per capita than Australia does. We in NZ still have complex social and economic problems. There is also poverty in NZ.

The US response to 9/11 has achieved nothing. It has increased the power potentially of the Taliban and ISIS and there are millions of people who don't share our enthusiasm for democracy and our so-called freedom. Of course as I am of English parents and live here in fairly good conditions (I'm not rich but we have a good welfare system here and I inherited a house, mind you I am painting and repairing it at the moment). So I would of course, say I was in the British Government, have to take strong measures to counter terrorism. But politicians and others have to also look at the wider and more complex causes. In fact the issues may be insoluble.

I have no problem with Moslem nations or what they do. Brainwashing happens everywhere. We are also "brainwashed" by the media and much else. Also there is a big problem from the right. Two men trying to protect an Arabic woman in the US were stabbed to death by a White Supremacist. This kind of racial conflict will probably increase if we go along the road of Trump etc. But of course we still, regardless of who is in power, need to keep police and secret services of various kinds. Big Pawn on here is one of those I see as quite dangerous in that he is inflexible and in fact quite brainwashed as you call it as was that right wing White terrorist. So in fact we in the so called civilised nations have along history of enslaving and terrorizing the world (and I include NZ as the NZ military and Governments have been party directly or indirectly to massacres and genocide etc and very unjust wars).

In a complex sense we are those who have lived and profited by the sword and or exploitation of other peoples around the world right up to now. This naturally causes resentment and our way of life despite our liberal education etc has not really brought about any fundamental changes...

We have lived and live by the sword and the swords are being turned against us.

Premium Chessgames Member
  Richard Taylor: Remember that the US never invaded Saudi Arabia where some of the 9/11 terrorists supposedly came from and maintain great relations there. But the issues are wider: I understand the Palestinian anger and their use of suicide bombers as they are in a sense, in extremis. But Israel is a kind of sped up exemplar of what happened in NZ. We also pushed Maori off their lands. A friend of mine is doing a film / book about the Great South Road which was built by the British in about 1863 or so in order to invade the Waikato. Maori were rarely beaten in any battles but slowly overwhelmed by numbers. Te Kooti fought a long guerilla war and was never beaten (he was also taking revenge against Maori who supported those who had taken his lands along the sea shore)...The Treaty of Waitangi 1840 was repeatedly violated. But it has been used and is still used as Maori and Pacific Islanders struggle for their rights etc...But in places suh as Tonga for example the struggle is also against the Royalty, and for democracy, and against the Churches. The Church is a big problem there. They have been "brainwashed" by the I said, my sister became a Christian and went to Bangladesh to try to convert Moslems! I don't know what church she is in. But the Pacific is of course also a problem area. Nor is China, which made great advances under Mao tse Tung and Chu Teh by beating the Japanese Army (while having to fight the Kuo Ming Tang (Chiang Kai Shek kept making agreements with them, the Communists would capture him, he would promise, they would let him go, and then he would support the Japanese...)...But the revolution in China like the US revolution brought China toward its present advancement. Meanwhile the ideals of cooperation and so on were abandoned by "Capitalist roaders" and so on...But now Capitalism uses the labour of millions of people (in China it is millions of peasants and working people, in the US it is illegal immigrants or black people or others, wherever: there is a chain if you like).

Meanwhile we are seduced by "pop" music and the illusion that We nd not They are "advanced" or "cultured" or "free" and we have no inequalities etc.

India is another example. Although they have a democracy they turn blind eyes to massacres and so on. Their democracy is dubious...and so it is in the West. In the US, Europe, Australia, Britain and NZ and other places. There are still people being used and abused.

Another biblical phrase:

'Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.'

Premium Chessgames Member
  ChessHigherCat: <Big Pawn on here is one of those I see as quite dangerous in that he is inflexible and in fact quite brainwashed as you call it as was that right wing White terrorist>

I seriously wonder how many of these bloggers are really just "foils" or "sock puppets" (parodies or caricatures) or "stooges". I mean, if you wanted to create a parody of a brainwashed US citizen, what would you call him? Big Pawn, maybe? And his avatar? Archie Bunker, perhaps? And all the extreme bloggers who seem to have no existence whatsoever apart from party politics like CM? You have to wonder whether they all aren't "performed" by one or two apparatchiks in the basement of Lubyanka. Anyway, you're a very interesting guy with lots of ideas I'd like to discuss but this is hardly the proper forum (pun intended). Why don't you start up your own user-moderated forum and I promise to contribute (although I do have quite a ridiculous workload most of the time).

Premium Chessgames Member
  Richard Taylor: <ChessHigherCat>

I think a lot of them are just playing around and don't care about anything. Probably a lot of them are what are called "sock puppets".

Some on here may be CIA agents and other. That is, say agents provocateurs.

Thanks for your post. It would be a good idea to have a forum that was rational, controlled by a 'chairman' or someone who could keep the "noise" out.

Good idea. Roggoff is mainly a blast of noise.

And I pick up a lack of support between those on it. It is a competition. Quite stupid. It is as if they were solely on cyberspace.

Archie Bunker was know it was inspired by the English program 'Till Death Us Do Depart' with Alf Garnett (Warren Mitchell) in it. He always reminded me of images of Kipling....

But you are right, this isn't the place....

Premium Chessgames Member
  Messiah: One of the most horrible puns in the history of GOTDs.
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