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< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 4 OF 4 ·
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| Jan-25-07 | | Fisheremon: <druby: please give longer variations instead of spamming posts with one line moves.> Sorry, because of the feature of the position and variaty of variations, please be patient, we'll resume soon. |
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| Jan-26-07 | | clocked: <Fisheremon> 26...Qxg2 and 27.Nf6+ gxf6 28.Bxf6 Qxh1+ 29.Kf2 Nd7 30.Qg3+ looks only equal unless you have an improvement. Better may be 27.Rf1 Nc6 28.Nf6+ Kh8 29.Ne8 e5 30.Rxf7 Ne6 31.Nd6 Qg1+ 32.Kd2 Kg8 33.Qe4 |
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| Jan-26-07 | | Fisheremon: <clocked: <Fisheremon> 26...Qxg2 and 27.Nf6+ gxf6 28.Bxf6 Qxh1+ 29.Kf2 Nd7 30.Qg3+ looks only equal unless you have an improvement. Better may be 27.Rf1 Nc6 28.Nf6+ Kh8 29.Ne8 e5 30.Rxf7 Ne6 31.Nd6 Qg1+ 32.Kd2 Kg8 33.Qe4> Right, my analysis (not exhaustive) with the main line 27.Rf1 Nc6 28.Nf6+ Kh8 29.Ne8 e5 30.Rxf7 Ne6 31.Qh5 shows Black might have serious troubles. Try to find a counter-move for Black. |
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| Jan-26-07 | | clocked: <Fisheremon> 31...Qg1+ can white prevent the string of checks? 32.Kd2 Qg2+ etc. |
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| Jan-26-07 | | Fisheremon: <clocked> Yes, 32... Qg2+ 33. Kd1 Qg5 34. Qxg5 hxg5 35. Nd6 Kg8 36. Bc4 Ned8 37. Re7+ Kh7 38. Bd3+ Kh6 39. Re8
Bg4+ 40. Ke1 g6 41. Rg8 Bh5 42. Nxb7 Kh7 43. Bc4 a5 44. Nd6
Nd4 45. Kf2 White still has a quite strong initiative. |
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| Jan-27-07 | | clocked: <Fisheremon> 33....Qg1+ |
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| Jan-27-07 | | Fisheremon: <clocked: <Fisheremon> 33....Qg1+> You're right, after 34.Be1 Qg5 White could get some advantage, but seemingly not sufficient for a win. I understand the situation now. A winning move was 24.Bb2!! Here's my analysis (a great part due to joint work with you, thanks for that): 24. Bb2!! 1) 24...f5 25. Bh5 Qh7 26. Bf7+ Kh8
27. Nd6 Rf8 28. Bxe6 Qg6 29. Bxf5 Rxf5 30. Nxf5 Qxf5
31. Qxh6+ Qh7 32. Qf4 Ne7 (32... Qh5 33. Rd5 Qe8+ 34. Kd2
Kg8 35. Rg5 Nde5 36. Re1  ) (32... Nb6 33. Rd6 Kg8
34. O-O ) 33. O-O Ng8 34. Re1
2) 24...Rf8 25. O-O f5 (25...Nde5 26. Bh5 Qh7 27. Ba3 Re8
28. Bd6 Kh8 29. Bxe5 Nxe5 30. Nd6 Bd7 31. Re2 Bb5 32. c4
Nxc4 33. Nxf7+ Kg8 34. Qg4 ) 26. Bh5 Qh7 27. Qg3 fxe4
28. Bg6 Qh8 29. Qc7 Rf6 30. Bxf6 gxf6 31. Rxd7 Bxd7
32. Qxd7 Rf8 33. Qxe6+ Kg7 34. Bxe4 Qg8 35. Qf5 Kh8 36. c3
Qg7 37. Rf3 with attack
3) 24...Nf8 25. Rxd8 Nxd8: Here you can choose simple 26. Qxd8 Qxe4 27. Ba3 winning a piece, but te endgame's dificult to win. I prefer the following: 26. Bd3 Qxg2 27. Rf1 Nc6 28. Nf6+ Kh8 29. Ne8 e5 30. Rxf7 Qg1+ 31. Kd2 Ne6 32. Nd6 Kg8 33. Qe4 Qg5+ 34. Kc3 g6 35. Bc1 Qg1 36. Bxh6
threatening next Be3.
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| Jan-27-07 | | clocked: <Fisheremon> in your final line, why not 33...Nf8 or 34...Nf8 |
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| Jan-28-07 | | Fisheremon: <clocked: <Fisheremon> in your final line, why not 33...Nf8 or 34...Nf8> Yeah, I planned to answer your question. Let say 34...Nf8: 34... Nf8 35. Rxb7 Nd4 36. Rc7 Qd8 37. Nxc8 leads to an endgame quite likely that B+B vs. N which is lost for Black but perhaps in the range of 60 moves ! (I don't know whether FIDE database admits such a win ?!). In the meantime I realized the following missed combo (after 24...Nf8 25. Rxd8 Nxd8 26. Bd3 Qxg2 27. Rf1 Nc6 28. Nf6+ Kh8 29. Ne8 e5 30. Rxf7 Qg1+ 31. Kd2 Ne6): 32. Nc7! Rb8 33. Bxe5 Kg8 34. Nxe6 Kxf7 35. Qf4+ Kxe6 36. Bc4+ Kd7 37. Qf7+ Ne7 38. Be6+ Kc6 39. Qe8+ Kb6 40. Qd8+ Ka7 41. Bd4+ Qxd4+ 42. Qxd4+ (almost forced). If it's true then 24...Bc3 and 24...Bb2 same, I 'd withdraw my (!!) to 24...Bb2. Cheers! |
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| Jan-28-07 | | clocked: <Fisheremon> I don't know about Bc3 and Bb2 being the same; in the Bc3 line there is no Qg1+ Kd2 so I don't think your Nc7 works the same way. However, in the Bb2 line 32.Qe4 looks good as well.
To be complete you may want to include a line from 24.Bb2 e5 |
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| Jan-28-07 | | Fisheremon: <clocked: <Fisheremon> I don't know about Bc3 and Bb2 being the same; in the Bc3 line there is no Qg1+ Kd2 so I don't think your Nc7 works the same way. However, in the Bb2 line 32.Qe4 looks good as well.
To be complete you may want to include a line from 24.Bb2 e5> You're right! I checked 24.Bb2!! anyway. The point is that in many variations threatening Ba3 quite strong, e.g. in this line 30...Qg1+ is forced, otherwise 31.Qxh6+ and mate combo with the aid of Bishop Ba3 the thing couldn't happen with 24.Bc3. Also one could shorten "the analysis" in 24.Bb2. Well the line with 24.Bb2 e5 looks also quite pretty: 25.Bh5 Qe6 26.Rd6 Qa2 27.0-0 Rf8 28.Bc1 f6 29.Bxh6 with fierce attack. |
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| Jan-28-07 | | clocked: <Fisheremon> 24.Bb2 e5 25.Bh5 Qe6 26.Rd6 Qe7 |
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| Jan-29-07 | | Fisheremon: <clocked: <Fisheremon> 24.Bb2 e5 25.Bh5 Qe6 26.Rd6 Qe7> 27. Qg3 f5 28. Ba3 (again the power of 24.Bb2!!) fxe4 29. Rxh6 Nc5 30. Rf1 Rd3 31. Qg6 Re3+ 32. Kd2 Qd8+ 33. Kxe3 Qd4+ 34. Ke2 with mate attack even after Queens trade. I agree that 32.Qe4 much better than 32.Nc7. Here's the line (after 24...Nf8 25. Rxd8 Nxd8 26. Bd3 Qxg2 27. Rf1 Nc6 28. Nf6+ Kh8 29. Ne8 e5 30. Rxf7 Qg1+ 31. Kd2 Ne6): 32. Qe4 Kg8 33. Rf1 Qg5+
34. Kc3 Nf4 (34...g6 35. h4 Qg3 36. Rf6 Ne7 37. Ba3) 35. Qh7+ Kf7 36. h4! |
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| Jan-29-07 | | clocked: <Fisheremon> 26... Qe7 27.Qg3 Nc5 |
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| Jan-29-07 | | Fisheremon: <clocked: <Fisheremon> 26... Qe7 27.Qg3 Nc5> Yeah, one has to change the order of moves a bit. The best (for Black) line looks like (other lead to fierce attacks: 24. Bb2 e5 25. Bh5 Qe6 26. O-O f5 27. Rd6 Qe7 28. Qxe7 Nxe7 29. Nc5 Nc6 30. Rfd1 Nxc5 31. Rxd8+ Nxd8 32. Rxd8+ Kh7 33. Bf7 winning the exchange and with falling Black pawns a, b pawn c decides the game quickly. I'm looking for a nicer combo, but so far for today. |
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| Jan-30-07 | | Fisheremon: <Fisheremon: <clocked: <Fisheremon> 26... Qe7 27.Qg3 Nc5> Yeah, one has to change the order of moves a bit. The best (for Black) line looks like (other lead to fierce attacks: 24. Bb2 e5 25. Bh5 Qe6 26. O-O f5 27. Rd6 Qe7 28. Qxe7 Nxe7 29. Nc5 Nc6 30. Rfd1 Nxc5 31. Rxd8+ Nxd8 32. Rxd8+ Kh7 33. Bf7 winning the exchange and with falling Black pawns a, b pawn c decides the game quickly. I'm looking for a nicer combo, but so far for today.> I completed this line with the following combo (24. Bb2 e5 25. Bh5 Qe6 26. O-O f5 27. Rd6 Qe7): 28. Qg3 Nc5 29. Rxh6 Nxe4 30. Qb3+ Be6 31. Rxe6 Qc5+ 32. Kh1 Kh8 33. Qh3 Kg8 34. Qxf5 |
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| May-16-07 | | crwynn: Vishy's 21...Qf5 was not good because of 22.Be5 Qg6 23.Qh4 Nc6 and now <Acirce>'s 24.Bh5 Qf5 25.Bxg7! Nc5 26.Nxc5! and White is at least better. But perhaps 21...Nc6 would cause real problems for this variation? The main idea is 22.Bc7 Qb4 23.Nd6 (not 23.Bxd8 Qxe4 24.Bc7 Nd4 and Black is better) Rf8! (which is paradoxical, saving the Exchange but giving up a piece; the point is to obtain superior coordination of his pieces) 24.c3 Qb1+ 25.Rd1 Qb2 (Black has to be willing to draw here after 26.Rd2) 26.Nxc8 Nf6! 27.Nd6 Nd5 28.Nc4 Qxc3+ and this ending looks good for Black to me. There are many other tries, but I haven't found anything promising for White. Black's other 20th move options are less good; after Van Wely's 20...Nc6 I think it is hard to avoid a worse ending, and the rook is badly-placed after 20...Re8, for instance a recent Shirov-Ftacnik game (not in this database) went 21.0-0! f5 (21...Qb6 22.Qxb6 Nxb6 23.Bh5 is bad for Black) 22.Qg3! Nc6 (an amusing computer line is 22...fe 23.Qg6 Rd8 [23...Qd8 24.Rf7] and now 24.Rf7 doesn't work, but 24.Rd3!! wins) 23.Qg6 Qd8 24.Bc4 Kh8? 25.Ng5! Qxg5 (26...hg 27.Rxf5 with a strong attack) 26.Qxe8+ and White went on to win. If Black refrains from ...f5 then Ba3 and Nd6, hitting d7 and f7, is strong. It's not so easy to analyze these lines with a computer, since they think Black is better while you are looking for an edge for White. Thus 20.Bd6 Rd8 21.Qg3 Nc6 22.Bc7 Qb4 23.Nd6 Rf8! is not preferred by the computers who want to give up the rook and try to win - I think White has an edge in those lines. A "drawfinder" that preferred forcing a draw for one side or another would be a useful analysis tool. |
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| Jun-08-07 | | sheaf: this whole line seems to be dubious for black , junior thrashed fritz playing white side of it. I doubt this will be seen at the top level again . [Event "DJ VS DF"]
[Site "ELISTA"]
[Date "2007.06.08"]
[Round "3"]
[White "DEEP JUNIOR"]
[Black "DEEP FRITZ"]
[Result "1-0"]
1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 a6 6. Bg5 e6 7. f4 Qb6 8.
Qd2 Qxb2 9. Rb1 Qa3 10. e5 h6 11. Bh4 dxe5 12. fxe5 Nfd7 13. Ne4 Qxa2 14.
Rd1 Qd5 15. Qe3 Qxe5 16. Be2 Bc5 17. Bg3 Bxd4 18. Rxd4 Qa5+ 19. Rd2 O-O 20.
Bd6 Re8 21. O-O f5 22. Qg3 Nc6 23. Qg6 Qd8 24. Bc4 Kh8 25. Ng5 Qxg5 26.
Qxe8+ Kh7 27. Bf4 Qg6 28. Qxg6+ Kxg6 29. Bxe6 Nf6 30. Bc4 Kh7 31. Bc7 a5
32. Ra1 a4 33. Bb5 Ne4 34. Rd3 Nb4 35. Rd8 a3 36. Bd7 Nxc2 37. Rf1 Bxd7 38.
Rxa8 Be6 39. Be5 Ng5 40. Rf2 Bb3 41. Rxf5 Kg6 42. Rf1 a2 43. Ra7 Ne3 44.
Rxb7 Bd5 45. Rxg7+ Kh5 46. Rc1 Nxg2 47. Kf2 Nh3+ 48. Ke2 Nh4 49. Ba1 Be4
50. Rc4 Bb1 51. Rg3 Ng5 52. Rb3 Nf5 53. Kd1 Ne4 54. Kc1 Kg5 55. Rf3 Kg4 56.
Ra3 Kf4 57. Rc8 Nf2 58. Rcc3 Ne4 59. Rf3+ Kg4 60. h3+ Kg5 61. Ra5 Nd6 62.
Ra4 Ne4 63. Rb4 Nfd6 64. Kb2 Nf5 65. Rb5 Nd6 66. Rc5 Nb7 67. Rc4 Nbd6 68.
Rg4+ Kh5 69. Rgf4 Kg6 70. Kc1 Kg5 71. Rg4+ Kh5 72. Ra4 Kg6 73. Rff4 Nc8 74.
Ra5 Ncd6 75. h4 Kf7 76. Re5 Kg6 77. Kb2 Kf6 78. Kb3 Kf7 79. Ra4 Kg6 80. Ra6
Kf7 81. h5 Kf6 82. Kb4 Kf7 83. Ra7+ Kf6 84. Rd7 Kg5 85. Rxd6
1-0
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| Jun-11-07 | | crwynn: That game is not so significant, since the 20...Re8 line is clearly inferior for reasons I explained; however it seems like I was over-optimistic about my idea 20...Rd8 21.Qg3 Nc6, where 22.Bc7 Qb4 23.Nd6 Rf8 (the whole point) 24.c3 Qb1+ 25.Rd1 Qb2 26.Nxc8 Nf6 27.Nd6 Nd5 28.Rxd5! may give White an edge; I examined this but did not take it so seriously because after 28...ed White needs to play 29.Kf2 which looks silly and the comps like Black here. But I should not have been so prejudiced; looks are not everything and a comp evaluation is only as good as the lines they have to back it up; in this case they like Black because of the super-ambitious 29...d4, and after 30.Nf5 g6 31.Nxh6+ Kh7 32.Ng4 Kg8 33.Bf4 (idea Qh4, Nf6 and Bh6 mating), White's attack is strong. GM's have been relying on the Old Main Line and Polugaevsky variation against 6.Bg5 lately and perhaps they will have to keep doing so. I have to say personally there is something depressing about the idea that 6.Bg5 e6 7.f4 Qb6 really works, so I hope this all holds up. |
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| Jul-13-07 | | outplayer: 20...Rd8 is stronger than 20...Re8 but 21.0-0 should be tried. |
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| Sep-21-07 | | vikgames: 27. Rf7, Rf8???
28. Rxg7+ (why didn't white play this step? this step can claim black's Queen rt?) |
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| Dec-12-07 | | crwynn: if 20...Rd8 21.0-0 Qb6, it looks to me like 22.Qb6 Nb6 23.Bh5 is pointless with no rook on e8, so White is down material for little compensation. 21...Qb6 22.Nc5 does not seem like it is going anywhere either. I think Motylev's opening was good, except that he should've gone for <Acirce's> idea involving Bg7. It may be awhile before any verdict is reached on 10.e5 (although we can safely say that the position after 20.Bd6 is critical), but GM's are still avoiding it and playing 7...Be7 and similar quieter (saner?) lines. At the very least Black has some serious problems, and there are a lot of possibilities for White. |
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| Dec-13-07 | | crwynn: Actually 20...Rd8 21.0-0 Qb6 is no good, but now I remember, 21...f5 is the problem, 22.Qg3 fe 23.Qg6 does not look sound at all, Black can play for instance Nde5, because there is no threat to a rook on e8. If ...f5 forces the knight to some lousy square like g3, then White's compensation tends to disappear very fast in this variation. |
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| Apr-06-08 | | buRnINGbeNd: 28. Rxg7+ Qxg7 29. Bxg7 Kxg7 30. Qg3+ (or Qg4) Kh8 31. Qg6 Rf6 1/2-1/2, so to win, he needs something else. |
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| Jan-30-12 | | Nemesistic: <Fisheremon> and <clocked>.. I see you two have done exactly the same as me! Iv'e also been through this game a few times, and i think i could have done better than Motylev with the white pieces.. Of course i couldn't, but i still think i can! White should have at least drawn this game, especially if instead of 28.Qf2? 28.Rxg7+ wins the Queen and a pawn for a B+R plus Blacks king would be weaker with white better positionally.. Anand can kind of play though, mind you! Top game, i understand every move made and why, which is a rareity for me when im looking through super GM games. |
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