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| Oct-14-05 | | ahmadov: <shirova> Pochemu ty takaya zlaya??? |
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Oct-14-05
 | | tpstar: The final position has all the makings of a great game; instead, it becomes just another short draw. They are only "exactly equal" in material; Black has beautifully dynamic hanging Pawns, while White has some potential Kingside action. Splitting the point so early is just monumentally lame. Give Kasparov the Black pieces. Would he agree to a draw yet? How about Karpov? And now, how about Topalov? |
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| Oct-14-05 | | Stevens: Players don't always agree to draws because the position is exhausted of all possible winning variations. Even reading through Tal's Life and Games he openly admits to agreeing draws before games even start, then playing a few moves for the sake of it. Of course, he did this far less than others, but it shows that if a player is not in the mood for a fight, they won't fight. It also depends on the tournament (in this case) situation and what the player is hoping to achieve from that event. |
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| Oct-14-05 | | azaris: <tpstar> Why the anger? They developed the theory this far, but didn't feel like slugging it out that day. Some day someone else will pick up from where they left and discover the ultimate truth behind the position. |
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Oct-14-05
| | tpstar: <azaris> Fine sir, not so much anger as disappointment. I'm sensing this spin where they "didn't feel like slugging it out" and they're "not in the mood for a fight," and how many times have we heard that before? I don't expect every game to be an all-out brawl, but in the absence of any external modifier (last round or team tournament), I'm just not inspired by such early draws. And I'm very surprised this game would be touted as an example of deadeye equality justifying the short draw. People are profoundly disappointed with Kramnik as World Champion. This is why. |
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| Oct-14-05 | | aw1988: <tpstar> The question is: do we honestly believe Kramnik alone is responsible? <tpstardefender> Er, thanks, but is this sarcasm? It seems a little optimistic... |
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| Oct-14-05 | | acirce: <The question is: do we honestly believe Kramnik alone is responsible?> A little selectiveness and bias never hurt anyone, now did it? |
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| Oct-14-05 | | notyetagm: <Stevens: ... Even reading through Tal's Life and Games he openly admits to agreeing draws before games even start, then playing a few moves for the sake of it.> Tal was also a very sick man with real health problems (kidneys), unlike whatever imagined illness Kramnik has. Tal drank and smoked so much to dull the pain that he was often in. My goodness, Tal even had to withdraw from the Curacao 1962 Candidates Tournament due to his poor health! If any top player ever had an excuse for a short draw it is Tal. |
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| Oct-14-05 | | notyetagm: <azaris: <tpstar> Why the anger? They developed the theory this far, but didn't feel like slugging it out that day. Some day someone else will pick up from where they left and discover the ultimate truth behind the position.> This is the biggest advantage of Go as a game: <there are no draws!>. If you do not feel like "finding the truth in the position today", then you lose, simple as that. When two Go masters sit down to play, one of them will walk away victorious. There is no "splitting the point" in Go. If you do not feel like playing your hardest today, fine, then I will win. |
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| Oct-14-05 | | notyetagm: It is very telling that this unfinished Kramnik game would make <acire>'s collection of Interesting Kramnik Games. My goodness, could you even imagine a Topalov fan putting a 19-move agreed draw into an Interesting Topalov Games collection? |
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| Oct-14-05 | | ughaibu: Notyetagm: at least twice you've described Kramnik as the "champion full of excuses", it's a little odd considering the bizarre excuses you and Dionyseus were offering for Kasparov last night and your excuse above for Tal, excuses for Capablanca, maybe more. Can you give a resume of Kramnik's excuses please as I'm not familiar with them. |
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| Oct-14-05 | | notyetagm: <ughaibu> You'll have to provide the Kramnik excuses: Why no rematch with Kasparov?
Why did he not play in San Luis?
Why has he dropped to a 2739 rating?
Why does he blunder so much?
Why does he place so poorly in tournaments?
Why does he have so little fighting spirit?
I cannot provide a good answer to any of these questions. |
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| Oct-14-05 | | suenteus po 147: <notyetagm> I know you asked <ughaibu>, but I'll take a crack at answering your questions (and no, they won't be good answers, because there are no good answers to your questions. there are no good answers to any of these kinds of questions no matter who you ask them about): <Why no rematch with Kasparov?> Aside from all the other reasons, Kramnik saw no point in it for himself. He had won, end of story. If Kasparov wanted a rematch, let him jump through hoops like anyone else. <Why did he not play in San Luis?> If he wanted to defend or reunify the title, he'll do it in a match, like with Kasparov or Leko. <Why has he dropped to a 2739 rating?> He's having a mediocre run. Most World Champions have after they become World Champion (excluding Karpov and Kasparov, of course). <Why does he blunder so much?> This one needs some context. The better question is why is he blundering so much for a World Champion? See answer for #3. <Why does he place so poorly in tournaments?> See answer to #3. <Why does he have so little fighting spirit?> He has won the world championship and each of the established super-GM tournaments. What's to fight for? |
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| Oct-14-05 | | notyetagm: <suenteus po 147> Good answers. If Kramnik feels like he has nothing left to fight for, then he should retire. |
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| Oct-14-05 | | kolisch: Just a reminder to those who remember Kasparov's and Karpov's matches together, both players had agreed to a number of short meaningless draws, especially in their first match. Sometimes the players are testng each other's preparations. It seems like a cheat; as remarked earlier, not much fighting spirit. |
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| Oct-14-05 | | ughaibu: Notyetagm: you have listed no excuses of Kramnik's, why do you call him the "champion full of excuses"? Does he make excuses? If so, please give at least one example. |
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| Oct-15-05 | | Stevens: <If any top player ever had an excuse for a short draw it is Tal.> This is all true, but in this book, in the examples i'm thinking of, he doesn't give health reasons to drawing short games. Of course, sometimes it may have something to do with it, but other times there were other reasons like just not wanting to play or it being towards the end of a tournament. |
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| Oct-17-05 | | samikd: <Does he make excuses? If so, please give at least one example> Yes he does ! After Sofia, his excuse was that he was tired from Brissago, which was a year back !! See, he may or may not have been fit, but such excuses just do not befit a world champion. No other world champion gave such excuses. (Oh no..I regret saying the last sentence ! Now people will come up with arguments like "in 1847 Staunton gave excuses" ..!) <Why no rematch with Kasparov?
Why did he not play in San Luis?
Why has he dropped to a 2739 rating?
Why does he blunder so much?
Why does he place so poorly in tournaments?
Why does he have so little fighting spirit? > Some more...
why did he selectively drop out of tournaments which featured Kasparov ?
What was his 'mysterious' illness ?
Why does he give silly excuses ?
Why he did he realise that FIDE had failed the Prague agreement AFTER playing in Brissago and not before that ?
If he is sincere about unification, why did he refuse to play the winner of Kasparov-Kasim ?
Why is he more interested in politics than chess ?
and finally..
why are his fans even worse than him ? |
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| Oct-17-05 | | ughaibu: Samikd: thanks for providing that, perhaps Notyetagm should take to calling Kramnik "the champion who once had an excuse". If a person wanted to mention a champion of excuses I think Fischer would be the simplest to start with.
You've puzzled me with "why are his fans even worse than him?" He's the world champion, surely you wouldn't expect his fans to be better than that? |
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| Oct-17-05 | | refutor: <Why is he more interested in politics than chess ? > you'd have to ask kasparov that one wouldn't you? ;) |
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| Oct-17-05 | | jamesmaskell: I think Kasparov feels he has acheived everything in chess that he can do...hes been WC for so long and has won everything possible. He looks for greater challenges. Gotta give him credit if he can win this battle though with the Kremlin. I dont think he can win but I support him in what he fights for. |
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| Oct-17-05 | | azaris: I think it's delusions of grandeur. Just because he's the best in chess he thinks he will excel similarly in other fields like management consultancy, business, or Russian politics. All he has achieved in politics so far is a few bumps on the head and some powerful enemies. It will probably be a miserable failure. He should go back to writing and commentating about chess, at least there his input is valuable and worthwhile. The anti-Putin diatribes are just ridiculous. |
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| Oct-17-05 | | samikd: <All he has achieved in politics so far is a few bumps on the head and some powerful enemies> lol :) |
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| Oct-17-05 | | notsodeepthought: <All he has achieved in politics so far is a few bumps on the head and some powerful enemies.> Hopefully the two are not too closely related... |
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| Oct-17-05 | | Brown: This seems to be a dynamic position with lots of potential, and it is a shame it was not continued, but I don't know of the tournament place in time. Karpov's handling of it in a rapid game is here
G Milos vs Karpov, 2004
Click on similar games, and you'll see some slugfests. Kramnik certainly didn't help his rep here, but we all have our reasons. <azaris> Agree with your psych-101 assessment of Kasparov. I've started to fear (albeit slightly) for his health. Caution is not his strong suite, yet he's seen aspects of Russia up close, so I am merely a concerned outsider. |
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