chessgames.com
Members · Prefs · Laboratory · Collections · Openings · Endgames · Sacrifices · History · Search Kibitzing · Kibitzer's Café · Chessforums · Tournament Index · Players · Kibitzing
David Bronstein vs M20 (Computer)
"The Iron Idiot" (game of the day Apr-13-2016)
Moscu Mathematics Institute (1963) (exhibition), URS, Apr-04
King's Gambit: Accepted. Schallop Defense (C34)  ·  1-0

ANALYSIS [x]

FEN COPIED

Click Here to play Guess-the-Move
Given 66 times; par: 36 [what's this?]

Get this game explained with Decode Chess
explore this opening
find similar games 2,231 more games of Bronstein
sac: 7.Qe2 PGN: download | view | print Help: general | java-troubleshooting

TIP: If you register a free account you will be able to create game collections and add games and notes to them. For more information on game collections, see our Help Page.

PGN Viewer:  What is this?
For help with this chess viewer, please see the Olga Chess Viewer Quickstart Guide.
PREMIUM MEMBERS CAN REQUEST COMPUTER ANALYSIS [more info]

A COMPUTER ANNOTATED SCORE OF THIS GAME IS AVAILABLE.  [CLICK HERE]

Kibitzer's Corner
< Earlier Kibitzing  · PAGE 6 OF 7 ·  Later Kibitzing>
Mar-06-11
Premium Chessgames Member
  kingscrusher: I have video annotated this game here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qi9k...

May-02-11  hasany81: was there computers back in 1963???
May-06-11  LIFE Master AJ: Incredible game! was it half sound?
Apr-10-13  Mendrys: I suppose sound enough knowing full that the M20 couldn't possibly find the correct moves after the relatively unsound 7. Qe2 and 10. Bd2. Brilliant work by Bronstein to find the mate in 10 here starting with Nxg5+


click for larger view

Some have said the game is rubbish and in some sense it is nothing more than an example of a GM toying with a weak opponent but taking into account that this was against a computer in 1963 then it has a whole different meaning. I just realized that the 50th anniversary was a week ago today. In some sense the computer is already showing some promise. We all know when computers started being able to beat master level players and above but when did they start being able to beat the average chess player, say someone 1400 and above? As bad as black gets beaten I can see that it was certainly in the 60's when they reached this level.

Jan-10-14  MarkFinan:


click for larger view

Bronstein must have been some player himself because from the above position there's a forced mate in 10. And he found it! He may have just stumbled upon it after the first few moves because from the position above it does look like there's a mate somewhere near, but in ten?!? I highly doubt it though when you look through the game! I think he saw it? I'm very impressed, not with the game because it's just rubbish, but with Mr Bronstein. If a player of his admittedly superb ability could see this, then it's completely mindbogglingly unbelievable how far the top players of today can see.. and I *really* do think that he calculated a forced mate in 10.

Feb-19-14
Premium Chessgames Member
  fm avari viraf: I think, in lieu of 19.Qxc8+ more elegant & quicker would be 19.Bxg5 bxc4 20.Nc7#
Mar-11-14  tranquilsimplicity: I have a feeling that Bronstein purposely opted to play outside of theory, and allow for material imbalances, in order to draw M20 out of it's programmed ability. It worked! And the result was not a great game but a glimpse into the then inferior standard of computer software. #
Mar-11-14  ChessYouGood: < MarkFinan: Bronstein must have been some player himself > Yes, a little known club player I believe. Maybe you can do some some research into him and report your results back to the site.
Sep-01-14  MarkFinan: <ChessYouGood: < MarkFinan: Bronstein must have been some player himself > Yes, a little known club player I believe. Maybe you can do some some research into him and report your results back to the site.>

Whooaa Princess! I never said I know anything about the guy, in fact I don't know much about the players of today, let alone players who played before my Dad was even born!?

Great to see that Every. Single. One. of your posts are just <<pure racist hatred>> aimed towards the best American player of the this century! How "men" like you slip under the chessgames dot com radar I just don't know.

But don't hate someone because they look different to you. Don't hate someone because they have a different sounding name than yours. And last, but certainly not least.. Don't hate someone who has the talent that some small minded "man" like yourself could only dream of.

Go Nakamura LOL 😄

Feb-13-15
Premium Chessgames Member
  erniecohen: Anyone criticizing M20's play here is an idiot. The M20 executed about 20K instructions per second, with about 20Kbytes of total memory for everything (including the OS). A modern core i7 is executing around 200G instructions per second and probably 16+ Gb of memory. That's a factor of 10^7 in execution speed and 10^6 in memory.

To put that into perspective, it would take the M20 about 12 years to boot Windows, except that you would have had to put together 100,000 M20s to have the required amount of memory.

Feb-14-15
Premium Chessgames Member
  AylerKupp: <erniecohen> Well, that justifies a lot of what I think about Windows.
Apr-13-16
Premium Chessgames Member
  al wazir: Botvinnik was trained as an electrical engineer. I have a book entitled _Computers, Chess, and Long-Range Planning_ that he wrote. (It is an abridged translation of the Russian edition, published in 1970.) It cites and expands on a 1960 paper of his in which he proposed an "algorithm" (really just an outline or schema of an algorithm) for a chess-playing program. Someone named Butenko apparently tried to write a program based on it. It is unclear whether that program ever ran, or if it did, how well it played.

Here, from the Preface, is Botvinnik's description:

<The algorithm, and therefore the program, falls into three basic parts:

1. The knowledge of the rules of the game, that is, the ability to move pieces properly from one square to any other. This information is contained in the code-tables that were introduced in An Algorithm.

2. Forming the mathematical map of the position, the "sight of the board." One must see not the board with the pieces on it, but those pieces and squares that, together with the path-trees, are to be kept within the map. This is the way a master sees the board. In essence, this amounts to isolating the urgent information. For the programmer, this task is much harder than the first.

3. The ability to put a value on a position, both a static and a dynamic value, in the scanning process by comparing the maps. This is perhaps the subtlest part of the algorithm, but it seems to me that the programmer must find it much more banal than the second part. Once the second part is finished, the programmer is through with the hardest part of the work. The third part will be difficult for the grandmaster, when he has to sharpen up the algorithm.>

As I read Paragraph 2, he was proposing to trim the "tree" of possible moves at the very first level, that is, to look at only a subset of the legal moves and their consequences (because "This is the way a master sees the board"). Remember, 50 years ago computers had memories and central processing units that were laughably small. Botvinnik mentions that Butenko "used only some 500 memory cells" for the first part. In contrast, present-day programs start trimming much later. Exhaustive (untrimmed) searches for 20 plies or more are not unusual.

I doubt that Soviet developments in chess-playing machines (or at least the ideas described in this book) were state-of-the-art even at the time it was written.

Apr-13-16
Premium Chessgames Member
  RookFile: An interesting game and a good effort by an early computer.
Apr-13-16  AlicesKnight: Thanks for the comments <al wazir> - interesting. I still have my "Chess Challenger" from the early 1980s (with real board and pieces you have to move by hand, typing in the move on a keypad), and if you don't mind waiting ten minutes for it to move on higher levels it plays a game - though once you head for the endgame, like most machines of its day it has little idea of strategy.
Apr-13-16  kamagong24: simply brilliant!!!
Apr-13-16
Premium Chessgames Member
  offramp: M20 computer? I wonder how the first 19 got on?
Apr-13-16
Premium Chessgames Member
  thegoodanarchist: <iron> you say?

No, no, no! The conductors in a computer from that era were most likely actual wires made from either Aluminum or Copper.

Nowadays the conductors are embedded in the microprocessor. They are called interconnects, and they are made from Copper. The vias from metal 1 are typically Tungsten (Wolfram).

Not Iron!

But then, <The Aluminum Idiot> isn't a good pun, is it?

Apr-13-16
Premium Chessgames Member
  offramp: Er, excuse me. I know a lot about circuits and one of my hobbies is making computer circuits from raw iron.

It's NOT easy and it IS time consuming but I made a steampunk 1 kilobyte iron memory stick for a friend.

It took me two and a half years and cost £17,700 but it was worth it! He's got one and a half great fonts on it.

Apr-13-16
Premium Chessgames Member
  thegoodanarchist: <offramp: Er, excuse me. I know a lot about circuits and one of my hobbies is making computer circuits from raw iron.

It's NOT easy and it IS time consuming but I made a steampunk 1 kilobyte iron memory stick for a friend.

It took me two and a half years and cost £17,700 but it was worth it! He's got one and a half great fonts on it.>

Maybe so, but you are living in the 21st century. Bronsteins' opponent was made from primitive Soviet technology of the early 1960s.

Back then, a Soviet fighter pilot defected to Japan in his Kirolyi 117 jet fighter.

Of course the Japanese and Americans reverse engineered it and found that the Soviet jet engines were still using phlogiston.

Apr-13-16  Slink: <tga: primitive Soviet technology of the 1960s>

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vosto...

Apr-13-16
Premium Chessgames Member
  kevin86: White chases the king from pillar to post...or rather from pillar and post.
Apr-13-16
Premium Chessgames Member
  Caissanist: Soviet computer technology in the early sixties wasn't that bad--not on a level with the USA, but close enough that it at least made sense to compare the two. After Brezhnev kicked out Khruschev, though, Soviet progress in computer technology (and pretty much everything else) ground to a halt within a few years. The last new Soviet mainframe design was completed in 1965 and began production in 1968.
Apr-13-16
Premium Chessgames Member
  Domdaniel: <MarkFinan> - Hi Mark ... your reply to wotsisname, <chessyougood>, was just brilliant. You're one of the good guys and he isn't, simple as that.
Apr-13-16
Premium Chessgames Member
  profK: In the very early 1960's Claude Shannon (Information Theory) backed by Bell Labs and the most powerful computer of its time played a match against a much smaller Russian Computer that had its algorithm assisted by Botvinnik. The two computers played each other and the mightly US machine got crunched either 10 or 11 to zero !!! It is a shame those games are not listed in the database here.
Apr-13-16
Premium Chessgames Member
  keypusher: <profK: In the very early 1960's Claude Shannon (Information Theory) backed by Bell Labs and the most powerful computer of its time played a match against a much smaller Russian Computer that had its algorithm assisted by Botvinnik. The two computers played each other and the mightly US machine got crunched either 10 or 11 to zero !!! It is a shame those games are not listed in the database here.>

How much did Botvinnik assist the algorithm, I wonder? :-)

Jump to page #    (enter # from 1 to 7)
search thread:   
< Earlier Kibitzing  · PAGE 6 OF 7 ·  Later Kibitzing>

NOTE: Create an account today to post replies and access other powerful features which are available only to registered users. Becoming a member is free, anonymous, and takes less than 1 minute! If you already have a username, then simply login login under your username now to join the discussion.

Please observe our posting guidelines:

  1. No obscene, racist, sexist, or profane language.
  2. No spamming, advertising, duplicate, or gibberish posts.
  3. No vitriolic or systematic personal attacks against other members.
  4. Nothing in violation of United States law.
  5. No cyberstalking or malicious posting of negative or private information (doxing/doxxing) of members.
  6. No trolling.
  7. The use of "sock puppet" accounts to circumvent disciplinary action taken by moderators, create a false impression of consensus or support, or stage conversations, is prohibited.

Please try to maintain a semblance of civility at all times.

Blow the Whistle

See something that violates our rules? Blow the whistle and inform a moderator.


NOTE: Please keep all discussion on-topic. This forum is for this specific game only. To discuss chess or this site in general, visit the Kibitzer's Café.

Messages posted by Chessgames members do not necessarily represent the views of Chessgames.com, its employees, or sponsors.
All moderator actions taken are ultimately at the sole discretion of the administration.

This game is type: EXHIBITION. Please report incorrect or missing information by submitting a correction slip to help us improve the quality of our content.

<This page contains Editor Notes. Click here to read them.>

Featured in the Following Game Collections[what is this?]
fourmanifold's favorite games
by fourmanifold
Gambit86's favorite games
by Gambit86
Back when computers were weak should be in schallop
from KGA-Knight Gambit -.Older Style continuations by takattack
Challenger Bronstein
by Gottschalk
A chess computer! what a novel idea.
from Computer evolution by sibilare
14
from Soñar no cuesta nada by Chess Guevara
Bronstein really makes fun of computers...
from Confuse's favorite games by Confuse
"The Iron Idiot"
from GMs vs Computers by thefreelancer
jungol's favorite games
by jungol
so THAT'S why (old) chess computers are out of business
from Aritra Chatterjee's favourite games by Aritra Chatterjee
sch
from KGA- Nc6, Becker Defense, Schallop Defence, Rare by takchess
A hilareous battle between man and machine.
from Sneaky's Scrapbook by Sneaky
When Humans Ruled the Earth. . . .
from micahtuhy's Top Ten of All Time by micahtuhy
A great game!!
from Stunners by Trigonometrist
Bronstein si prende gioco del computer
from Ghizza's favorite games by Ghizza
wild games 1
by wwm
4/13 Bronstein beats the computer.
from Games of the day for 2016. by Jaredfchess
e4 Attacking Lines KG vs..Nf6
from reurbz's Favorite Games by reurbz
ultrattacker's favorite games
by ultrattacker
yCommunity P-K4 Combined by Fredthebear
by fredthebear
plus 118 more collections (not shown)

Home | About | Login | Logout | F.A.Q. | Profile | Preferences | Premium Membership | Kibitzer's Café | Biographer's Bistro | New Kibitzing | Chessforums | Tournament Index | Player Directory | Notable Games | World Chess Championships | Opening Explorer | Guess the Move | Game Collections | ChessBookie Game | Chessgames Challenge | Store | Privacy Notice | Contact Us

Copyright 2001-2021, Chessgames Services LLC