|
< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 3 OF 3 ·
Later Kibitzing> |
Aug-25-18
 | | gawain: The game is instructive, and the dance of the Black pieces starting with 12...Bxh3 is pretty. So is the clever way that White can continue the struggle with 18 Bxf7+ which can draw if Black goes wrong. With best play by Black it blunts the Black attack but leaves White down by two pawns. In other words the resource is insufficient--but why not try it? Maybe White, like me, was so focused on the SE corner of the board that he did not see what was available elsewhere. |
|
| Aug-25-18 | | Walter Glattke: 13.Qf3 Bg4 14.Qd3 Nh5 15.Kh1 f5! |
|
| Aug-25-18 | | Walter Glattke: 16.Qd5 Qf6 17.Qxb7 Ng3+ 18.Kh2 Qh4+ 19.Kg1 Qh1# / 18.fxg3 Qh6# / |
|
| Aug-25-18 | | sudoplatov: It looks like after some analysis that <thejack >'S suggestion of 16....0-0-0 is very strong. White can win the g7 Pawn but that opens a line Black's Rooks. |
|
Sep-13-18
 | | tpstar: <Hey -- a new puzzle!> |
|
| Sep-13-18 | | wtpy: Well I was about to say piece of cake having quickly seen the game line. looks like black keeps a winning edge even with best defense. |
|
| Sep-13-18 | | jith1207: I didn't know this was repeated recently, glad I was able to find the whole sequence. Not taking the Sac would have been better. |
|
Sep-13-18
 | | agb2002: A bit too famous and a lot too recent. |
|
| Sep-13-18 | | saturn2: I saw the first moves of the game line but went with 17..Nxf2 instead of 17..Bxf2
After 18 RxN BxR Black has a rook plus 3 pawns for bishop and knight which should be advantegous but far away from a clear win. |
|
| Sep-13-18 | | scholes: I had 17 ..Nxf2 instead of 17..Bxf2
Check out this game played by stockfish
here https://www.chess.com/computer-ches... [Event "CCCC 1: Rapid Rumble (15|5) Stage 1"]
[Site "Chess.com"]
[Date "2018.09.12"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Stockfish 220818"]
[Black "Fire 7.1"]
[Result "1-0"]
[WhiteElo "3439"]
[BlackElo "3144"]
[WhiteType "program"]
[BlackType "program"]
[ECO "C07"]
[Opening "French"]
[Variation "Tarrasch, open variation"]
[TimeControl "900+5"]
[Time "20:25:59"]
[Termination "normal"]
[PlyCount "137"]
1. e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. Nd2 c5 4. Ngf3 Nf6 5. e5 Nfd7 6. c3 b6 7. Bb5 Be7 8. O-O
O-O 9. Re1 Ba6 10. a4 Bb7 11. Nf1 c4 12. b4 Re8 13. Bxd7 Nxd7 14. Ng3 Nf8 15.
Nh5 Ng6 16. h4 Qc7 17. g3 Kh8 18. Kg2 Bf8 19. Nf4 Nxf4+ 20. Bxf4 Qd7 21. Qc2 f5
22. h5 Kg8 23. h6 g6 24. Bg5 Be7 25. a5 Bxg5 26. Nxg5 b5 27. Kf3 Re7 28. Qd2 a6
29. Kg2 Rf8 30. Re3 Ree8 31. Rf3 Qe7 32. Re1 Kh8 33. Nh3 Rg8 34. Qg5 Rgf8 35.
Qxe7 Rxe7 36. Ng5 Bc6 37. g4 Be8 38. Rg1 Bf7 39. Kg3 Kg8 40. Kh4 Be8 41. gxf5
exf5 42. Re1 Bd7 43. e6 Bc8 44. Rfe3 Rfe8 45. Re5 Bb7 46. Nh3 Rd8 47. Kg5 Rd6
48. Nf4 Ba8 49. Rg1 Bc6 50. Ree1 Rc7 51. Rg3 Re7 52. Kf6 Re8 53. Reg1 Kh8 54.
Re3 Red8 55. Ke7 Bb7 56. Re5 Bc6 57. Nh3 f4 58. Rg4 Kg8 59. Rxf4 Bb7 60. Ng5 Bc6
61. Rf3 R8d7+ 62. exd7 Rxd7+ 63. Ke6 Rd8 64. Rf7 Re8+ 65. Kd6 Rxe5 66. Rg7+ Kf8
67. dxe5 d4 68. Ne6+ Ke8 69. Re7# 1-0 |
|
| Sep-13-18 | | cocker: Why did White resign? 18 Bxf7+ makes a fight of it. |
|
| Sep-13-18 | | stacase: Taking note of the fact that White's f2 Pawn is pinned, busting up the castled king with 12...Bxh3 seems like the thing to do. Sort of plays itself once you do that. |
|
Sep-13-18
 | | Once: Too famous, too recent and too busted. Apart from that, great puzzle. But before we get too critical of Chernev, von Scheve or Teichman, they were all playing/ writing before the advent of computers. All they had were whisky, cigars and weapons-grade mustaches. Perhaps it's no surprise that they missed the occasional tactic. I blame it on all those King's Gambits. I remember playing through this games dozens of times when I was learning to play chess by reading Chernev's Logical Chess; Move by Move. It was like spending time with your favourite grandfather. Sure, he was behind the times and prone to "more tea vicar?" flatulence, but he was your grandfather and you loved him to bits. |
|
| Sep-13-18 | | saturn2: <NBZ White to play and not lose immediately must find 18. Bxf7+! Kf8 (Kxf7 Qd5+ draws) 19. Bf4! Qxf4 20. Bh5!>
I would play 20...Qh6 and it looks hopeless for white to me. |
|
| Sep-13-18 | | mel gibson: A good warning to all players -
don't resign too easily.
It was a drawn game & Scheve resigned. |
|
Sep-13-18
 | | patzer2: For my attempt at today's Thursday puzzle (12...?), I visualized 12. Bxh3! 13. gxh3 Qg3+ 14. Kh1 Qxh3+ 15. Kg1 Ng4 16. Nf3 Qg3+ 17. Kh1 (diagram below):
click for larger viewHere (diagram above) I went with 17... Nxf2+ ∓ (-0.86 @ 37 ply, Stockfish 9) instead of the game move 17...Bxf2 ⩱ (-0.40 @ 37 ply, Stockfish 9). White needlessly resigned after 17...Bxf2, as he could have suvived with 18. Bxf7+! ⩱ (-0.40 @ 37 ply, Stockfish 9) since 18.Bxf7+! Kxf7 (18...Ke7 19. Bg5+ Kf8 20. Bf4! Qxf4 21. Bh5 Nf6 22. Rxf2 =) gives White a draw by perpetual after 19. Qd5+ Ke8 20. Qe6+ Kf8 21. Qf5+ Ke8 (not 21...Ke7? 22. Bg5+ Nf3 23. e5! +-) 22. Ke8 Qe6+ =. As it turns out, the humans (including the players in this game and myself) missed the much stronger winning continuation 17...Qh3+ 18. Kh1 g5!! -+
(-5.10 @ 32 ply, Stockfish 9).
Also stronger than 17...Bxf2 ⩱ would have been 17...Qh3+ 18. Kh1 0-0-0! -+ (-3.40 @ 32 ply, Stockfish 9). P.S.: So where did White go wrong? To start with, White's 10. dxe5?! Nxe5 = to ⩱ gave Black equality or better too easily. Instead, 10. Re1 ±(+0.75 @ 32 ply, Stockfish 9) would have maintained the tension with an advantage. White's decisive mistake was of course resigning prematurely after 17...Bxf2 ⩱ and not playing 18. Bxf7+! = to ⩱. Before that, the decisive mistake was 12. Nd2?, allowing today's Thursday puzzle solution 12...Bxh3! -+. Necessary instead was 12. Qf3 ⩱ (-0.30 @ 33 ply, Stockfish 9) with drawing chances. |
|
| Sep-13-18 | | Sally Simpson: The now infamous game 1 in 'Logical Chess' by Chernev. The original 1957 book was translated into algebraic in 1998 and is a word for word, move for move 'warts an all' copy. I know the perpetual check idea missed by Black was known before 1998. I recall it surfacing in the 70's and a Chess reader wrote in saying it was also mentioned in correspondence in the 1960's. Should we correct errors when translating old books? Maybe not in the actual text but certainly a small errata page at the end of the book could be added...perhaps. Maybe they thought if they correct that one then they will have to add corrections to every slight slip and the book will look like a butchers carcass. Still an excellent book despite the few missed shots. As Once posted: Chernev was your favourite grandfather. Someone, sometime has had a stab at correcting this mistake - or it may well be what actually happened and Chernev had the wrong score in 1957. (probably not but it would be interesting to know where the following game actually came from.) Von Scheve vs Teichmann, 1907 The same game but without 8....a5 and 9.Ba7.
click for larger view This does indeed make a difference because in that game there is no perpetual. The Black King can run to a7 via b6. See my line from the linked game. |
|
| Sep-13-18 | | Mayankk: I had the same sequence except that I swapped the 15... Ng4 and 16... Kg3 moves. Makes no difference methinks. The 18 Bxf7+ line and possible draw if 18... Kxf7 is interesting but I only understood it when referring to previous messages. |
|
| Sep-13-18 | | Mayankk: I had the same sequence except that I swapped the 15... Ng4 and 16... Qg3 moves. Makes no difference methinks. The 18 Bxf7+ line and possible draw if 18... Kxf7 is interesting but I only understood it when referring to previous messages. |
|
Sep-13-18
 | | Jonathan Sarfati: <patzer2:> Then surely... g5! on move 16 rather than 18? |
|
Sep-13-18
 | | Penguincw: Ah, this classic pattern. But I missed it. And it was a recent puzzle too... |
|
Sep-13-18
| | patzer2: <Jonathan Sarfati> Right! No need to waste time with a repetition as 16...g5!! -+ (-5.12 @ 34 ply, Stockfish 9) is the same position which occurs after 16...Qg6+ 17. Kh1 Qh3+ 18. Kg1 g5!! -+ (-5.02 @ 34 ply, Stockfish 9). |
|
| Nov-21-20 | | Kasansky: After Bxh3, I used the 'engine' on this site for every move after that so it's a bunch of low depth Stockfish 9 moves, I don't know why I did this, it would have been much faster and higher depth/stronger moves from the Stockfish app for mac on my computer running SF dev 061120 on my computer which is NNUE, so it's probably Stockfish 12. Oh, well, this is what kept me up until 4 AM, I never played StarCraft II today...sigh. The first moves are the game so you can copy and paste. 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Bc5 4. c3 Qe7
5. O-O d6 6. d4 Bb6 7. a4 a6 8. a5 Ba7
9. h3 Nf6 10. dxe5 Nxe5 11. Nxe5 Qxe5 12. Nd2 Bxh3
13. Qf3 Bg4 14. Qd3 O-O 15. Nf3 Qxe4 16. Qxe4 Nxe4
17. Bd5 Nc5 18. b4 Be6 19. bxc5 Bxd5 20. cxd6 cxd6
21. Rd1 Be4 22. Rxd6 Rac8 23. Ba3 Bxf3 24. gxf3 Rxc3
25. Rd7 Ra8 26. Kg2 Rc2 27. Rad1 h5 28. R1d2 Rxd2
29. Rxd2 Re8 30. f4 Re4 31. Rd8+ Kh7 32. Rd5 g6
33. Rd7 Rxf4 34. f3 g5 35. Rxb7 Bd4 36. Bc1 Rf5
37. Rd7 Bc3 38. Rc7 Bxa5 39. Rc6 Rd5 40. Rxa6 Bd2
41. Ba3 Ra5 42. Rd6 Bf4 43. Rd3 Ra6 44. Bc5 Ra2+
45. Kg1 f6 46. Ra3 Rd2 47. Bb4 Rc2 48. Rc3 Rb2
49. Ba3 Ra2 50. Bc5 Kg6 51. Ra3 Rc2 52. Bd4 h4
53. Ra1 Rd2 54. Bc5 Be5 55. Rf1 Kf5 56. Re1 h3
57. Be3 Rd3 58. Kf2 Ra3 59. Bc5 Ra2+ 60. Kg1 Kf4
61. Rf1 Rb2 62. Rd1 Kxf3 63. Bd6 g4 64. Rf1+ Kg3
65. Rd1 Bxd6 66. Rd3+ Kh4 67. Rxd6 Rb1+ 68. Kf2 h2
69. Rd8 g3+ 70. Ke3 h1=Q 71. Rh8+ Kg4 72. Rxh1 Rxh1
73. Kd4 g2 74. Kc4 Rc1+ 75. Kd5 g1=Q 76. Kd6 Qa7
77. Ke6 Qc7 78. Kd5 Qe5# |
|
| Jan-21-21 | | LouE: This is funny - what are Stockfish 12's top two suggestions for move 8? ...8.a5, and 8.h3!
Typical SF, always playing illogical coffee-house moves. |
|
| Jan-22-21 | | LouE: Another interesting thing to note is that Chernev writes that 4...Qe7 prevents White from playing d4 on the next move, but further analysis reveals that actually this may in fact be possible. After 4...Qe7 5.d4!? exd4 there is 6.O-O!, gambitting a pawn in quite favourable circumstances for White. It is debatable as to whether Black can accept this gambit, but I know I'd take the White pieces here: 
click for larger viewI'm not sure if this was a known idea at the time, but I don't believe the Closed Giuoco Piano enjoys a particularly good theoretical reputation these days, probably for this exact reason - the awkward queen move played to prevent d4 doesn't actually prevent d4. |
|
 |
|
|
< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 3 OF 3 ·
Later Kibitzing> |
Kibitzing
sac: 12...Bxh3