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Mikhail Tal vs Peteris Grave
"O, Grave! Where Is Thy Victory?" (game of the day Apr-30-2016)
Latvian Championship (1965), Riga URS, rd 3, Mar-??
Sicilian Defense: Old Sicilian. Open (B32)  ·  1-0



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Kibitzer's Corner
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Apr-30-16  The Kings Domain: The magician weaves another spell. Tal's boldness and imagination is dazzling and inspiring.
Apr-30-16  morfishine: Grave got buried
Apr-30-16  tjipa: <sneaky pete> Sorry, but the Latvian chess magazine Sahs, issue 1965/9, on p.4 has the crosstable of this tournament, and there is, indeed, P. Grave who finished last. There is also R. Grants, finished 11th, but no Tauve. Btw, Grave does not mean anything in Latvian.
Apr-30-16  Bruce Graham: <tjipa> That's a relief. There could have been grave consequences.
Premium Chessgames Member
  eternaloptimist: <RookFile> Amen!
Premium Chessgames Member
  Domdaniel: O grave, where is thy victory?
O Sting, where is thy death?
May-01-16  tjipa: PĒTERIS GRAVE (1921.- 2003.) - ārsts un šahists. No 1960. gada strādājis Strenču Psihoneiroloģiskajā slimnīcā. Ilgus gadus Pēteris Grave bija viens no Valkas puses un lauku sporta biedrības "Vārpa" spēcīgākajiem šahistiem. Strenčos notiek Pētera Graves piemiņai veltīti šaha turnīri - Translation: Doctor and chessplayer. Since 1960, he worked at Strenci Psychoneurological hospital. For many years, Grave was among the strongest chessplayers of Valka region and rural sports society Varpa. In Strenci town, Grave memorial chess tournaments are regularly held.
May-02-16  The Kings Domain: tjipa: Thanks. Before the info you shared he seemed like some ominous, mysterious figure from the distant past.
May-02-16  Pulo y Gata: In fact, Grave is some ominous, mysterious figure from the distant future.
Premium Chessgames Member
  sachistu: Just curious <Stonehenge> why the player Udo Tarve is still being listed here? The Latvian magazine Sahs (Shakhmaty Riga) 1965 Issue 9 cross table shows P.Grave. Shakhmatny Bulletin 1965 Issue 6 p181 has the game and lists Black as Grave. The Encyclopedia of Latvian Chessplayers by Val Zemitis lists Peteris Grave as being the participant in the 22nd Latvian Championship in 1965.

Oddly, Chess Results (Di Felice) lists U. Tarve, but cites Sh. Riga 1965, which is strange as the cross table (in cursive) clearly show P.Grave. The Hilary Thomas book of Tal games (1906-1966) lists Tauve, which is apparently a typo for 'Tarve', but still incorrect. I don't think there is any doubt that this was P. Gave and not U. Tarve.

Feb-06-18  zanzibar: <sachistu> is absolutely, definitively, resolutely, undoubtedly, irrevocably, and most virtuously, correct.

Plus he's right.

One big problem I have with <CG>, beyond the ease that corrections can be made by editors (which cuts both ways), is the lack of transparency of such changes.

The edit and notes history are a start, but they lacks a good searching facility, and they are mostly filled with minor, pro forma, changes.

Significant changes, such as this one, should be self-documenting, the change doc should injected into the game comment section for reference. This includes name changes, and other PGN tag changes, as well as move changes.

And while I'm here, I should mention that when old players pid's get defunct, due to merges, the old PID page should have a message pointing to the new player page - for the sake of look up, and to give users a hope to track changes made long ago.

PS- Cyrillic cursive is a bitch.

PPS- <Sachistu> do you the full names of Grant and Grave?

Feb-06-18  zanzibar: To amplify <sachistu>'s comment a little more, <Trave> is an Estonia player - and this game is from the <Latvian 1965 ch>.

Not a likely combination.

Grave didn't place well, so it's perhaps not so surprisingly to see little mention in the De Felice CR's I can see online (various 1960's Riga tn's).

What is surprising is to find little mention of Grant, who didn't place so badly.

Грант, Р.
Граве, Л.

(I've seen <Grant, Roberts> someplaces)

Feb-06-18  zanzibar: Grave shows up on RUSbase earlier, in Latvia ch 1958.

Feb-06-18  posoo: Dis is CRAZEY i came here to make a post like "OH LOL look da man's name is U TARV" but then


then. . . . . .


I com and see dat dis has ben a source of DEBATE for many years! and chesgams STARTED corect with da grave and then went tarve and then people got upset and then people said NEW RECORD KEEPING and then people were like RIGA RIGA RIGA LATVIA BOOM BOOM

let me look at the game.

Feb-06-18  zanzibar: FWIW - Di Felice also got it wrong - which could explain how <CG> flip-flopped on it.

Of course, Di Felice cites <sachistu>'s source - which is the same source I've used as the most authoritative.

One thing I wonder about though - where did RUSbase gets most of it's 31 games from the tournament? The <Shahmatny Riga (May 1965)> issue only has a handful.

BTW- here's a picture of Tal playing R. Skuja from the tournament

Feb-06-18  zanzibar: I should have thought of this resource a long time ago:

It has links to several of the players who aren't so well-known outside Lativia, e.g. Pēteris Grave

Premium Chessgames Member
  sachistu: <zanzibar> the names were Peteris Grave and Roberts Grants. I should defer to someone from Latvia, but I believe typical name spelling includes an 's' at end of first and last name e.g. Robert(s) Grant(s). However, it seems some sources use a more Anglicized convention e.g. Robert Grant. Another case is Marks Pasmans, which is often spelled Mark Pasman (or Marks Pasman or even Mark Pasmans).

I was just curious as I saw the Editor Notes indicated the name should be Grave and not Tarve. I assumed the the fact it was still listed as Tarve was an oversight.

It's interesting the tournament cross table spelling does not show the 's' suffixes, but most Latvian writings have the 's'. Perhaps someone of Latvian background can explain this.

Feb-07-18  posoo: 🌚
Feb-07-18  zanzibar: <posoo> is that the math QED symbol?
Feb-07-18  zanzibar: <sachistu> the Latvian player names are properly displayed on the Latvian wiki page for the tournament - which I cited before, but here it is again:

There is both the men's and women's championship xtab for that year. You'll notice that most of the male names end with "s", and most of the women's end with "a".

I believe this might indicate a genderized postfix is added to the surname.

E.g. Tal's name in Latvian is Tals, Kapengut's is Kapenguts.

Even Shirov's Latvian name gains a final "s":

<Aleksejs Širovs>

So, my inclination is to remove the final "s". But counter-examples seem to exist (e.g. Klovens).

Perhaps <hemy> can offer an informed opinion?

(Disclaimer - native English speaker am I, though Google translate seems to back me up under the proper circumstances.)

Feb-07-18  zanzibar: I'll state it again - Tal did not play Udo Trave in this game (that is, if it comes from Riga (March 1965)).

He played <Pēteris Grave>, a well-known and generally loved Latvian player.

Premium Chessgames Member
  sachistu: Thanks for your citations <zanzibar>. It's interesting the Russian publications i.e. Shakhnatny Bulletin do not include an 's' in their spellings. e.g. Janis Klovans is typically listed Klovan (and with no first initial). Petersons is listed as Peterson. Again, I would have to defer to someone of Latvian background for an explanation. It would make sense to have a consistent spelling. However, I suspect some of these spellings are Latvian conventions. For example, Kapengut was not Latvian, and is normally listed as Kapengut, not Kapenguts.
Premium Chessgames Member
  alexmagnus: <Name spellings> Klovans in Russian is Klovan, but still Janis and not some Jan.
Feb-08-18  zanzibar: RE: Latvian names

It's funny, but the English version of wiki <Latvian Names> gives the rules for the prenom, but seems to neglect the surname.

The Latvian version of the wiki page explicitly mentions the case for surname, but omits the technical term of art "masculine declension":

<The peculiarity of the surname of Latvians is the change of heads according to the surname owner's gender. The male ends are generally -s, -s, -s, but the feminine ends are usually -a, -e .>

This supports my, err, informed speculation from the xtab observations.

So, to be consistent with Tal and others, Klovans should be translated as Klovan it seems.

It still would be nice to get a Latvian opinion on the matter. In any case, the wiki pages make interesting reading.

Premium Chessgames Member
  sachistu: Another interesting case is Alvis Vitolins, or as often seen, Vitolinsh. Russian publications list the name as Vitolinsh, but other sources spell it Vitolins.
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