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Later Kibitzing> |
Dec-13-12
 | | agb2002: White has a rook and a pawn for a bishop and two knights. If the rook on f1 could take the pawn on h6 directly Black would be unable to stop mate in two at most. Therefore, 17.R1f6: A) 17... gxf6 18.Qg6+ and mate next.
B) 17... Qxf7+ 18.Qxf7+ followed by the advance of White's g- and h-pawns. C) 17... Ng5 18.Rxg7+ Kxg7 (18... Kh8 19.Qxh6+ Nh7 20.Qxh7#) 19.Qxh6+ Kg8 20.Qxg5+ and mate in two. D) 17... Nd8 18.Rxg7+ as in C.
E) 17... Nd5 18.Rxh6 and mate soon (18... Qxf7 19.Rh8#; 18... gxh6 19.Qg6+, etc.; 18... g6 19.Qxg6+, etc.). F) 17... Nf4 18.Rxg7+ Kxg7 19.Qxh6+ Kg8 20.Qg5+ Ng6 21.Rxg6+ Qxg6 22.Qxg6+ Kh8 (22... Kf8 23.Qd6+ and 24.Qxc7) 23.Qh5+ Kg8 (23... Kg7 24.Qe5+) 24.Qg5+ Kh7 (24... Kf7(8) 25.Qf4+) 25.Qh4+ Kg6(7,8) 26.Qg3+ and 27.Qxc7 + - [Q+3P vs R+B]. |
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| Dec-13-12 | | morfishine: <Abdel Irada> My bad! In trying to count pieces, I still miss counted! Lets try it again, for White, not including the Queen he has two rooks = 2 For Black, not including the Queen, he has one Rook = 1, two Knights = 2 & one Bishop = 1 for a total of 4 Duh...:) |
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| Dec-13-12 | | JG27Pyth: Got the first move, but failed to spot black's best (Ng5) defense. :( |
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| Dec-13-12 | | Abdel Irada: <JG27Pyth: Got the first move, but failed to spot black's best (Ng5) defense.> Actually, that's Black's third-best defense. Both 17. ...Qxf7 and 17. ...Nf8 are better. |
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| Dec-13-12 | | morfishine: <Abdel Irada> I meant to add, very nice post spotting 17...Qxf7. I briefly considered this move, then quickly dismissed it, thinking "Black's only a piece down, giving up the Queen for rook...there has to be better" Here, my counting oversight directly impacted my thought process. Very poor indeed :( |
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| Dec-13-12 | | Elo: Either I am getting old, or this is the toughest Thursday in a long time. (Probably the former.) |
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| Dec-13-12 | | Castleinthesky: A tough one, but at least I made it through Wednesday this week. |
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| Dec-13-12 | | Abdel Irada: <morfishine: <Abdel Irada> I meant to add, very nice post spotting 17...Qxf7.> Thank you, but to be fair, I'm far from the only solver who spotted that defense. |
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Dec-13-12
 | | chrisowen: A crow phobia in fear on it seem in aha f6 light now threaten at h6 you know chance for black knight, grateful favour in each clump enough d5xc7 eli be lined up! Having third rank covered pal add in with any luck now hint winding principle h6 quoffed by rook in Ellerbrock out ie d5 rumbled and bassoon bishop capture in c7 wrong knight one engage in e6 across it saint in the bag oh f6 defence in flick a f1 tangle in wood g7xf6 then g6 land in kingh8 i concluded 19.Qh7 it seem like for together e8xf7 Rxf7 racing into the lead on lynch in g5 doubling in rf7 and wave g5 off protect sitter in h7 renew i g7 yah ein queen sits h6 in un avoidable 19...Kg8 20.Qxg5+ Qg6 21.Qxg6+ Kh8 22.rf8# |
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Dec-13-12
 | | kevin86: After Rf6,black's games goes down quickly! |
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| Dec-13-12 | | James D Flynn: Material is unbalanced but approximately equal with R and pawn for 3 minor pieces but in an endgame the 3 pieces will win. However Black is behind in development. Black threatens to simplify by 17…..Ng5 when 18.Rf8+ Qxf8 19.Rxf8+ Kxf8 and h4 would not win a piece by Qc5+ because the N simply returns to e6. In reply to 17…..Ng5 instead of simplifying by 18.Rf8+ White could sac the exchange by 18.Qg6 if then Nxf7 19.Rxf7 now Ne6 defend s g7 because after Rxg7+ Nxg7 the N protects the Black Q. White can avoid this by h4 or move the Q to attack g7 from g6 or e5. 17.h4 prevents the N attacking the R on f7 because Nd8 18.Rf8+ Qxf8 19.Rxf8+ Kxf8 20.Qc5+ Ke8 21.Qxc7 and while Blacks material advantage is clear his development is impeded by the White Q but 21….. Ne6 forces the Q to move and then b6 and Bb7 willl be possible and Black is clearly better although the win may be difficult. Therefore the candidates are Qg6 and Qe5. 17.Qg6(the N must remain on e6 to protect g7 but the R on f7 is still pinned and Black can quietely go about his development by either b6 and Bb7 or a6 and the a1`R now defends f8 allowing the Black Q some freedom or d6 or d5 and Bd7 followed by Q Q c8 and Be8 forcing t both the White R and Q to retreat and allowing Black to start probing the White position with his pieces. Whites only plan for activity after 17.Qg6 would be the advance of his Q-side pawn majority but that majority is hampered by the doubled c pawns. 17.Qe5 breaking the pin has more prospects for active play The Ne6 is now pinned and 18.Qd6 threatens 19.Re7 and doubling Rs on the 7th rank and Blacks development is totally stymied by the R and Q threatening the d7 pawn.
17.Qe5 d5 18.Qd6 (threatens 19. Re7 Qd8 20.Qxd8+ Nxd8 21.Rxc7 now the 2 active Rs appear better than the undeveloped Black R, B, and N e.g 18….b6 19.Re7 Qd8 20.Qxd8 Nxd8 21.Rxc7 Ba6 19 Re7 Nb7 20. R 1f7 Nc5 21.Rxg7+ Kf8 22.Ref7+ Ke8 23.Rc7 Kf8 24.Ra7 Kg8 25 Rxa6 and Black should win with his united K-side pawns and his Rs dominance of the 7th rank. |
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| Dec-13-12 | | whiteshark: Saw it in a blink. <17.R1f6!!> and that's it. |
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| Dec-13-12 | | BOSTER: Some players are too materialistic , they are too careful with <material>, they like expression "Let's go for green". Another players prefer a good development, they like when their pieces have a lot of space for movement, they believe that "opened file for a winner", they are ready to sacr. <material> only for <tempo>. I guess , we always enjoy watching the sharp exciting battle between them. In such <POTD> pos.,where black rook a8 and bishop c8 were untouchable, and knight on c7 has a duty to protect the black queen, where white has only 3 active pieces to play, and the amount of meaningful moves are very limited, to see 17.R1f6 with the threat Rxh6 and if Qxf7 Rh8# is not difficult. After 17...Qxf7 18.Qxf7+ Kh8 19.Rg6 I don't think that black has time go to the cafeteria for his coffee.
And if 17...Ng5 18.Rxg7+ Kxg7 19.Qxh6 and mate in couple moves. |
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Dec-13-12
 | | benveniste: <After 17...Qxf7 18.Qxf7+ Kh8 19.Rg6 I don't think that black has time go to the cafeteria for his coffee.> This is still going to be a bit of a grind because black will be able to get his Bishop active before White can get his K-side pawns into the fray. I tried playing this out against Arasan and blundered my way into a draw twice before winning around move 70. |
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Dec-13-12
 | | Once: That took longer to spot than I'd like. Somehow it seems harder to spot moves that don't capture or check, but simply bring another piece into the attack. |
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| Dec-13-12 | | DarthStapler: I got the first move |
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| Dec-13-12 | | Kikoman: I'm looking ♖f8+? but this move is lose for White and after a few minutes I found the right move ♖1f6! Δ ♖xh6! and ♖h8+# if Black replies gxf6? then White simply check his ♕ at g6 and mate follows. So, the best defence for black is ♕xf7!?. After White takes the Black's ♕, it seems White is winning but he needs a accurate play to win this. Kihx3 |
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| Dec-13-12 | | stst: continuing on some anal for 17.Rf6 (to mean of course R1f6, else the WQ is gone!):
IF (A)17.... gxf6, 18.Qg6+ Ng7, 19.Qxg7#
IF (B)17.... Kh8, 18.Rxh6+ gxh6, 19.Qxh6+ Kg8, 20.Qh7#
IF (C)17..... Ng5, 18.Rxg7+ Kxg7, 19.Qxh6+ Kg8, 20.Qxg5+ Kh8, 21.Rh6#
Too often the same theme that the K is imprisioned in a corner, then sufficient forces of the opponent exist to pin it down for mate.
Question: Theorectically, is this the ultimate and only scenario for a mate?? |
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Dec-13-12
 | | gawain: A few minutes perusal leads to the conclusion that 17 R(1)f6 must be the right move. It threatens mate and also leads to mate if the rook is taken. Does Black have any other defense to try? I'll check the kibitzing. |
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Dec-13-12
 | | LIFE Master AJ: I thought about this a long time, maybe for around 5-10 minutes. At first, I was sure that a piece was left off ... 17.R1f6! looks like the only try, but I am not (at this point) 100% certain that White will win ... |
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| Dec-14-12 | | BlackSheep: Didnt immediately jump off the board at me but you soon realise it can be the only possible move . You need more force and theres only one piece that can fill this role plus it only has one square to move to in order to make a difference the rest was just gravy . After looking at the game as a whole though the variation should have its name extended to King's Gambit: Accepted. Bishop's Gambit Bogoljubow Variation Kitchen sink attack . |
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| Dec-14-12 | | whiteshark: apply cold water to burned area |
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Dec-14-12
 | | Benzol: I wish <whiteshark> would re-open his forum. Otherwise I hope he sees this post so I can ask him ( again! ) if he can fix his Game Collection: 99_Hamburg 1910 so we can get as live page. |
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| Dec-16-12 | | whiteshark: <Benzol> I've added the missing game (Köhnlein-Tarrasch) to complete the a.m. collection. :D |
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| Dec-19-12 | | UnsoundHero: After 17 R1f6, perhaps Black should try 17...Qxf7 18 Qxf7+ Kh7 19 Rf5 a5 20 h4 Ra6. |
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Later Kibitzing> |
Kibitzing
sac: 12.Nxf7