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Isidor Gunsberg vs Hermann von Gottschall
5th DSB Congress, Frankfurt (1887), Frankfurt am Main GER, rd 7, Jul-22
Sicilian Defense: Closed Variation. Traditional (B25)  ·  1-0



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Kibitzer's Corner
< Earlier Kibitzing  · PAGE 2 OF 2 ·  Later Kibitzing>
May-10-13  Al2009: @M. Hassan

After 22.Bc5! h5

the best is

23. Rxh5! (not 23.Bxd6) gxh5
24. Qg5+ Kh7
25. Qxh5+ Kg8
26. Qg5+ Kh7
27. Rf3! and then mate

May-10-13  GauraNitai: @Hassan: Bd4 is very, very solid, covers the f6 pawn beautifully for instant mate should black play Bxf6. Bc5 however allows Bxf6 which prolongs the game. Bd4 is stunning.

However, at move 23, I spotted something that even Houdini failed to see for quite a while. Rh4 is fine, keeping up the attack on the h-file, but it allows h5 from black's side, extending the game. I thought, why not just give up the rook, go 23. Qh6! blocking the h-pawn's movement, and if 23...Bxh3 24.Rf4! wins very quickly.

Though both Rh4 and Qh6 win, Qh6 seems much faster. What do you think, guys?

May-10-13  end run: The human is smarter than the computer! I love it!
May-10-13  GilesFarnaby: I was looking at 23.Rf5, but that is only a draw:

click for larger view

23...Bxf5 24.exf5 h5 25.Rxh5 gxh5 26.Qg5+

click for larger view

Premium Chessgames Member
  Diademas: Looking at this it seems like any Bishop move on the diagonal d4-a7 will do the trick, but I might be wrong...
May-10-13  cyclon: In Today's Puzzle my prefatory move is ( wright or wrong ) 22. Bd4. It serves mainly three purposes; 1. Gives way for the White Queen to h6 threatening mate. 2. Taking control over a1-h8 diagonal and covering f6-pawn at the same time. 3. Keeps g1-a7 diagonal occupied for the time being. Yet, it's position in d4 is strong and shaky AT THE SAME TIME. So, two main alternatives here in my view are;

1. ( 22. Bd4 ) 22. -h5 ( 22. -Nxd4 23. Qh6 Nxe2+ [or whatever] 24. Kh1 over, or 24. -Bxf6 25. Bxf6 wins, but NOT 25. Qh6? Bxd4+ 26. Kh1 f6 ) 23. Rxh5 gxh5 ( there isn't much alternatives for Black; the threat was 24. Rxh8+ and f.e. 23. -Bg7 24. fxg7 f5 25. Rh8+ ) 24. Qg5+ Kh7 25. Qxh5+ Kg8 26. Qg5+ (26. Rf4 ) 26. -Kh7 27. Rf4 mates.

2. ( 22. Bd4 ) 22. -Bd7 23. Rh4 ( simply ) retaining same threats as in previous line; 23. -h5 24. Rxh5 / 23. -Nxd4 24 Qh6 / 23. -Bxf6 24. Qh6 ( in this line White can play this move because 22. -Bd7 took off Black's Queen control over h7-square after f7-pawn moves ) or alternatively 24. Bxf6. Black cannot meat the threat 24. Qh6 adequately. So, maybe I missed something, but it seems to me that besides some sub-lines, already after 22. Bd4 it's time for the curfew to Black.

May-10-13  cyclon: < GauraNitai> It seems that your line 22. -Bd7 23. Qh3 is !!-move.
Premium Chessgames Member
  chrisowen: Youd reed in job reaction weaving line hive mind,

combine together do it is a door as put in he at,

22.bd4 first a king bottle necked in g8 one dilemma in exactly it down in a good among sted fast e3 d4,

hunger d2 lust rook h3 and queen to penetrate again h6 the key yer one st in 22.bd4 to bag h6 for bishop make room for the mushroom at.

Premium Chessgames Member
  chrisowen: Suttle maneovre d4 pack man e8 in 22...bd7 oddity taken at a glance off rook up hat 23.rh4 instead to be baptism of fire dip at hes crypt ad rag 23...bg7 still in got feed sound effect be of 20.f5! angle tooth and claw in a 21.f6 bone in the throat sets up it booked in judge off re you inceed have wiggy in free 24.fg7 f5 25.Qh6 mate in mojo twelve,

roundabouts hook it down in jatha suffix rook kindred in get 23.rh4 h5 church of reason deep in confirmed it now in badge got bind rook 24.Rxh5 bg4,

or in go also 24...bg7 coasting blow away the pedal.

I've got painstaking ha picks 25.fxg7 f5 26.rh8+ one live to bishop black junglemind yang leap oh in,

st even 24...bg4 look inflame it her bind jangle in he has proof in every jeopardy it double in massed,

again bade light rook in space 25.Rxh8+ aorta mate too heart of the matter juice in duty ramble,

mission select queen in hoofed 26.Qh6+ to signing off!

Premium Chessgames Member
  Sneaky: <Diademas: Looking at this it seems like any Bishop move on the diagonal d4-a7 will do the trick, but I might be wrong...> That's what I thought. I fancied 22.Bc5 just because it looks so striking.

However <GauraNitai> provides the refutation: <Bc5 however allows Bxf6 which prolongs the game.> It's important to keep in mind that White is down a piece to start, so a move that simply forces Black to make a defensive sacrifice will only lead us into muddy waters.

May-10-13  kevin86: I couldn't decide to move the bishop out of the queen's way or proceed with Bh6,winning the exchange and preparing for Qh6.
May-10-13  Al2009: <GauraNitai>

What kind of "refutation" of 22.Bc5! did you see??????


22. Bc5! Bxf6


23. Rxf6 Kg7 (only this to prevent Qh6)
24. Rxd6!

and now, neither 24...f6 nor 24...f5 nor 24...Rh8

can prevent

25. Qh6+ and 26 Rd7! (or 26.Rxg6+ if 24...Rh8) with easy win.

(If 24...h5 25. Rxh5! etc.)

Premium Chessgames Member
  Diademas: <Sneaky> After 22...Bxf6 23. Qh6 and black will be mated by Qxh7. Regardless of where the white DSB went the move before.

If you mean a later Bxf6 like this: 22. Bc5 Bd7 23.Rh4 Bxf6 than simply Rxf6. Or am I missing something?

May-10-13  GauraNitai: @Diademas: After 22...Bxf6 23. Qh6
Black has Bd4+!!
24. Nxd4 f6!! and the position is perfectly fine. At least white's advantage is minor and doesn't threaten mate. @Al2009: We do not claim that Bc5 loses, it's one of the many good moves which win for white, but it is much slower compared to Bd4. It allows Bxf6. Then 23. Rxf6 Bd7! Now, if 24. Qh6 Bxh3 and White's lost a rook at least (assuming he captures the e6 pawn) and no way to make a mating attack (because Rf4-h4 doesn't work as black has f5! to save the day) White's best attack after 23...Bd7 24.Rh4 Kg7 25.Rxd6 Rh8 offers defence for a longer while. It still loses, but gives enough time for black to group some pieces to defend for a while. The engines suggest 24...h5 but it loses very quickly with 25. Rxh5 Bg4 (forced, finally, to prevent Qh6, which is now a serious threat) 26.Rh4 Bh5 (stalling Qh6 as far as possible. Rd8 instead of Bh5 still allows Qh6 forcing you to play Bh5 later anyway. Now game loses fast. So 24...Kg7 stalls for longer.

Engines have their merit, but they do not understand the nuances of the game. That is why they have freestyle chess, to combine the vision of man and the calculations of machine. A machine can beat me in chess any day, but I still understand the game better than it.

Premium Chessgames Member
  Diademas: Thank you <GauraNitai>.

I should have known better than to think I saw something clever this late in the week. *facepalm*

May-10-13  Patriot: White is down a piece and a pawn.

Here I thought about 22.Bh6 but clearing the bishop so that Qh6 becomes possible seemed best. The one move that seems to keep all the threats alive is 22.Bd4:

22...Nxd4 23.Qh6

22...Bd7 23.Rf5 Bxf5 24.exf5 h5 25.Rxh5

22...h5 23.Rxh5 Bg7 24.fxg7

There are more lines here but I think this is basically the idea. For example in the second line, 23...h5 could also be tried but I don't think it changes anything after 24.Rxh5.

May-10-13  Patriot: <<GilesFarnaby>: I was looking at 23.Rf5, but that is only a draw:> Great catch!! I was sure 23.Rf5 won and perhaps even saw the pawn still sitting on h7 in the line <22...Bd7 23.Rf5 Bxf5 24.exf5 h5 25.Rxh5 gxh5 26.Qg5+>.
May-10-13  Patriot: 23.Rh4 is such a simple winning idea why look for something exotic like 23.Rf5, which happens to draw? That's the question I'm asking myself. Of course the answer is 23.Rh4 doesn't seem forcing enough for my thought process, and apparently the interference tactic 23.Rf5 stood out more than a simple saving move.

Houdini suggests 23.Qh6 Bxh3 24.Rf4 (threatening 25.Rh4) and black is dead.

May-10-13  M.Hassan: <Bartimaeus>
Thanks for your work. In fact your revised solution gives a much faster mating conclusion than my own line. I have tidied up your line as reading below: 22.Bc5 Bd7
23.Rh4 Bxf6
And mate next move
I beleive that your statement "Bd7 is much better response than h5" is a better understanding of the game.
May-10-13  M.Hassan: <Al2009>:
Looks that you and I are the only two kibitzers that have gone for 22.Bc5! and I still favour it although many discussions prevail that 22.Bd4 is better.They are not convincing 100% for me. Thanks anyways.
May-10-13  BOSTER: Any "Dragon", who respects himself, can't afford to create such "friendly" situation , where his head (king) has no any movements.

<Engines have their merit, but they do not understand the nuances of the game. I still understand the game better than it>. It is nice to have such sence of humor. I don't think that even Carlsen can claim this. But you are lucky man if you have such <understanding>.

May-10-13  Patriot: <BOSTER> <It is nice to have such sence of humor.> Actually he is probably right. You also understand the game better than an engine. Computers don't understand--they calculate and do it well enough they don't need to understand.
Premium Chessgames Member
  FSR: Black's king is hemmed in not only by White's pawn on f6, but by its own pieces. If White could play 22.Qh6, the game would be over. So how to get the bishop out of the way? One's first impulse is 22.Bxa7, but Black takes it <with check>, so that probably isn't the best approach. So 22.Bd4! (incidentally guarding the pawn on f6, so 22...Bxf6 23.Bxf6 would be unavailing for Black) Nxd4 (I don't see any reasonable alternatives) 23.Qh6! (threatening 24.Qxh7#) Nxe2+ 24.Kh1 and Black stands up.
May-11-13  Al2009: <GauraNitai>

Sorry for you, but after
23. Rxf6 Bd7!
24. Rh4 Kg7 (as you suggested)

now White can play (instead of 25.Rxd6) the stronger

25. Rf1! Rh8 (forced)
26. Qh6+ Kg8
27. Nf4! Be6 (to prevent Nxd5 and Nf6+)
28. Nh5! gxh
29. Rxh5 Qe7 (29...Ne7 30.Bd4 )
30. Bxd6! and then Rg5#

I don't think Black could prolong the game so much, after 22.Bc5!

I think that both M. Hassan and I are right, in preferring 22.Bc5!

May-18-13  GauraNitai: @Al2009: After 27.Nf4, black has 24...dxc5. Then if 25. Nxd5, it is met by 25...f5! and it will take time for white to clear the road to victory (although assured). If 26.Nf6+ then 26...Kf7 and white has lost all advantage and the position is perfectly balanced. If you'd like to suggest some other line?

Bc5 wins, no doubt, but not as rapidly as Bd4. Bc5 puts the bishop en prise as well, so eventually once it is taken in a quieter position white's immense positional advantage is reduced. Bd4 avoids that from the start, covering f6 as well. Not always you have to sacrifice to win splendidly.

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