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Robert James Fischer vs Tigran V Petrosian
"Mad TV" (game of the day Jul-20-2015)
Fischer - Petrosian Candidates Final (1971), Buenos Aires ARG, rd 7, Oct-19
Sicilian Defense: Kan. Modern Variation (B42)  ·  1-0

ANALYSIS [x]

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Kibitzer's Corner
< Earlier Kibitzing  · PAGE 16 OF 16 ·  Later Kibitzing>
Dec-06-20  SChesshevsky: <Malfoy: ...If over the board, I even wonder whether a GM would dedicate significant time to all of them. From the point of view of a commentator, however, I would probably drop most of the detailed analysis of these additional candidates, exactly because essentially it does not change the overall evaluation.>

You make a very good point. When playing OTB, you need to do what you have to do and calculate what you have to calculate until feeling comfortable. But good outside analysis probably dictates pruning possibles down to most relevant.

This need for pruning seems it can make being on a top GM's seconds team difficult. The computer can probably spit out reams and reams of lines, say in a Reti. But the seconds don't want to show the top GM everything but they also don't want to leave out anything that might end up being good or something that might not be great but could be faced OTB. Being a second likely much more difficult than might expect.

Dec-06-20
Premium Chessgames Member
  gezafan: <Malfoy: According to very up-to-date analysis, all the hype about 22.Nxd7 and the relevant flurry of exclamation marks should be thrown into the sink: apparently the natural 22.a4 is winning while 22.Nxd7? actually throws away the win because of 23...d4! instead of 23...Rd6? and furthermore both opponent's play in the ensuing endgame was far from perfect. Source: https://en.chessbase.com/post/solut>

Has anyone refuted this analysis? Or is it now held to be accurate?

Dec-07-20  Malfoy: Well, <gezafan>, for what my human analysis (double checked by my comp, though along variations which are hardly longer then ten moves) is worth, White maintains a distinct advantage, but with a tendency to evaporate in the long run, since he has trouble keeping control over the activity of the black pieces: the knight becomes very good on d5, as soon as a white rook leaves an open file one black rook Is ready to take over it, and at some stage Black may push a6-a5 thus sensibly relieving the pressure on his queenside. White has more than a way to enter some rook endgame a pawn up, but nothing to write home about since generally it is a technically defensible one for Black: it would not be unfair to view this scenario the other way round, i.e. that Black has many opportunities to force a tenable rook endgame the a-pawn down with a 3 vs. 3 pawn strutture on the kingside.

At present the best I can find for White after 23...d4 is something like 24.a3 Nd5 25.g3 or maybe better 24.Rc4!? with the idea of simply strenghthening the position, while at the same time trying to restrict the black pieces. Trumps for White are that his king will come into play sooner or later, while Black's one will remain inactive for quote a while, and that exchanging at least one pair of rooks favours White, especially as long as he manages to keep Black's forces stuck to the defense of BOTH a6 and d4, but this Is not easy to achieve.

Dec-07-20  asiduodiego: <Petrosianic><Somebody, Bronstein, I think, said that if Petrosian sacrifices a piece, then resign. But if Tal sacrifices one, take it, because he might sacrifice another, and then who knows?> That quote has always eluded me, although I'm also sure that I've heard it or read it somewhere. But, this quote is on the Wikipedia article about Tigran, and with reference, so I'll guess it's accurate:

"It is to Petrosian's advantage that his opponents never know when he is suddenly going to play like Mikhail Tal." Boris Spassky

Dec-07-20  Malfoy: <"It is to Petrosian's advantage that his opponents never know when he is suddenly going to play like Mikhail Tal." Boris Spassky>

Apparently they would learn it the hard way:
Petrosian vs M Bertok, 1962

Dec-15-20
Premium Chessgames Member
  gezafan: <Malfoy: Well, <gezafan>, for what my human analysis (double checked by my comp, though along variations which are hardly longer then ten moves) is worth, White maintains a distinct advantage, but with a tendency to evaporate in the long run, since he has trouble keeping control over the activity of the black pieces: the knight becomes very good on d5, as soon as a white rook leaves an open file one black rook Is ready to take over it, and at some stage Black may push a6-a5 thus sensibly relieving the pressure on his queenside. White has more than a way to enter some rook endgame a pawn up, but nothing to write home about since generally it is a technically defensible one for Black: it would not be unfair to view this scenario the other way round, i.e. that Black has many opportunities to force a tenable rook endgame the a-pawn down with a 3 vs. 3 pawn strutture on the kingside. At present the best I can find for White after 23...d4 is something like 24.a3 Nd5 25.g3 or maybe better 24.Rc4!? with the idea of simply strenghthening the position, while at the same time trying to restrict the black pieces. Trumps for White are that his king will come into play sooner or later, while Black's one will remain inactive for quote a while, and that exchanging at least one pair of rooks favours White, especially as long as he manages to keep Black's forces stuck to the defense of BOTH a6 and d4, but this Is not easy to achieve.>

Thanks for your reply. One thing's for sure, this is an interesting game!

Dec-16-20  mravikiran: Bobby Fischer probably missed 13. Bb5
Dec-16-20
Premium Chessgames Member
  perfidious: <mravikiran: Bobby Fischer probably missed 13. Bb5>

Or not; Fischer's choice kept a small, but clear edge, as opposed to the obscure situations which could have arisen after the win of exchange.

Dec-16-20  Malfoy: Agree. Both Fischer's style and favourable match situation were against accepting to lose the initiative just for the sake of defending a material advantage in a complex position, though of course no computer would object to this. From the start of the game to its end he was adamant on this, and psychologically flawless.
Dec-16-20  Everett: It’s not that complicated. Doesn’t mean it’s “easy.”

First, one must have deep understanding in as many positions as possible. Second, one must know what positions one most enjoys and excels, and, in match play, have a sense (perhaps) of what positions your opponent doesn’t like. Third, play the best moves at the board and let everyone else figure it out afterward.

Fischer, Karpov, Kasparov, and now Carlsen were/are the very best at getting the game they want, and exerting their will on their opponents.

Dec-16-20
Premium Chessgames Member
  perfidious: <Everett>, I would include Lasker, psychologist par excellence, on any list of players most adept at imposing their will on the man sitting across the table from them.
Dec-16-20  Everett: <perfidious> Cannot disagree with you there re: Lasker.
Dec-16-20  Everett: < keypusher: < harrylime: Robert James Fischer and Paul Charles Morphy Versus Mikhail Soviet Commie Cheat School of Chess

lol lol lol>

Woah, there, Morphy taking on the Soviets? Well, they say he was ahead of his time....>

Can you stop being so... correct lol

I mean, you haven’t seen the game score of Morphy vs Stalin?

Jan-11-21  Torodeboro: Chapter 3 - Weak Pawns

Fischer - Petrosian - 1971 Buenos Aires - Candidates Match game 7

- Interesting setup against the Sicilian Kan. Placing the bishop on d3 and exchanging the knight on c6. After this the c6-d5-e6 triangle centre can be attacked with e4 (which was already there) and the new pawn push c4! Leaving black with an isolani.

- The move 12 Qa4+ with the idea of centralizing with Qd4 is an interesting maneuvre. In most cases you want to put a knight in front of an isolani, but it makes sense that literally ultimate centralization of the queen t also makes sense. From d4 the Queen has a great attacking power and it can not be driven away easily in this positon.

- It is a powerful idea to create an outpost on c5 by exchanging the darksquared bishop on e7 and playing b4. Having changed the dark-squared bishops, the dark squares in front of the a6 and d5 weak pawns also become easier spots for white to put pieces on and control.

- The trade of the strong knight, on move 22, for the bishop on d7 is a fact of trading one advantage for another advantage. Fischer makes sure the black bishop can play no role in the defence of his weak pawns and having made this trades enables his rooks to penetrate the position.

- After 25 moves black's rooks are totally tied down to defending his weak pawns and he simply cannot move a piece. This júst holds everything together. By bringing an extra piece into action, namely the king (!), white's surplus in activity is decisive.

- When the white king starts penetrating the position, black decides to 'unleash' the knight, but shortly after that his position falls apart to the two superior rooks working together with the bishop on the 7th and 8th rank

- In general also: The less pieces there are left on the board the more decisive one or two active pieces versus one or two inactive pieces of the opponent becomes. This something to realize when trading! The activity of single pieces matters more the more pieces are trades. That is also simple mathematics. :)

A beautiful game which shows how the pieces of your opponent can be totally tied to defending the weak pawns. This gives time for you to activate and coordinate your army (including the king!), create an outpost by having traded off the one potential good piece of your opponent and there you go!

Feb-19-21  Allanur: Petrosian's annotation of this game: https://www.chess.com/blog/Ruhubele...

As for 13.Bb5 pin, Petrosian states that after 13.Bb5 a×b5 14. Q×a8 0-0 black obtains initiative whereas with the line that actually took place leads to worse endgame for black.

Feb-19-21  sudoplatov: Petrosian's annotations are quite interesting. They remind me a bit of Capablanca's style.
Feb-19-21  Petrosianic: I dunno, I never saw Petrosian write "The student should work this out for himself."
Feb-19-21  Boomie: Lazily playing over the game, I came to a screeching halt at move 10.


click for larger view

I'm sure there's a reason black didn't play 10...Nxd5. However it was a head scratcher for me. Asking the Fish was no help as it agrees with me that Nxd5 is best. Not only does black avoid the crippling isolani, he is set up for a classic minority attack on the queenside. Go figure.

Feb-19-21
Premium Chessgames Member
  beatgiant: <Boomie>
It's been tried, 10...Nxd5 11. Be4 with a small advantage for White. Black has some trouble disentangling his pieces, as in Fischer vs M Green, 1963 or Beliavsky vs Kurajica, 1982
Feb-19-21
Premium Chessgames Member
  keypusher: <Boomie> <Beatgiant> It's worth looking at Petrosian's notes/comments/whatever they are that Allanur posted. Petrosian thinks pretty highly of 10....Qxd5 11.Nc3 Qd7.

I had SF11 take a pretty deep look (90 minutes, 47 ply). It scored 10....Qxd5 and 10....Nxd5 dead even (+0.27). It likes either a good deal better than 10....exd5 (+0.75).

Minority attacks are overrated anyway (ask AlphaZero!), but I wouldn't say Black has much prospect of one no matter how he captures on move 10.

Feb-19-21  Allanur: The thing that most amazed me from Petrosian's annotation is the knights exchange on c6. Petrosian states this exchange makes 4.a6 a waste of time. I had never realised it, I am not a player of high calibre, yet I think I could have realised it.
Feb-19-21
Premium Chessgames Member
  beatgiant: <Boomie>, <keypusher> Using the Opening Explorer, the only example I found with 10...Qxd5 11. Nc3 Qd7 was Vasiukov vs A Vooremaa, 1972. It does look like White's opening advantage was minimal, although White won.
May-22-21
Premium Chessgames Member
  kingscrusher: <Sally Simpson> I think computers now with Neural networks are far more instructive. Pawn structure courses without mention of "thorn pawns" for me are simply INCOMPLETE as an example. The book "Game changer" by Sadler and Regan is a must to check out for the principles and strategies neural networks have uncovered. Some confirm existing strategies and sometimes there are new exciting strategies like "Thorn pawns" which I myself use very frequently to win my online games and yet is not existent in chess literature.

When we check games with Neural networks in particular and find "truths", for me it is a sharpening of the principles being taught.

I have seen more than 7 layers of analysis of the book "The Art of attack" when I did promo stuff for Chessable on that. My own analysis of some key Alekhine games found new ideas, and principles not mentioned. Analysis creates data. From data, you can start to see patterns and crystalise even new "Game changing concepts".

I like what you say about "Empathy" for the players - you say to put themselves in their positions. That is fine, but if you are an online or OTB player, and you are doing research, it is good to have reliable "data" in terms of analysis which is OBJECTIVE of games, and can shed light on new patterns and concepts. Without truth, you end up basiing things on incorrect examples. In my view one does need to find the "truth" of positions. Now before Neural Networks I am more with you - I actually LOATHE Kasparov's great predecessor series, and when he came to London he basically said most of the analysis was done with one of his assistants with Fritz. The problem with that stuff is that there is no "Evaluation" of anything either. It is just engine output in the pre-neural network era.

For me the interest also of TCEC has gone up dramatically in recent years because of the neural network games. They are often more exciting than human games. There is a beauty to chess that they are revealing - one example as well is the "Bishop without the counterpart". One engine Stoofleves can often sac multiple pawns and show how devasting this type of asset can be. But you can also see it on the black side of many Fischer games and it goes unnoticed by 99.9% of kibitzers on this site. But I notice it because I have seen that concept in more vivid emphatic forms of examples from some of the Neural network engines. It used to be the pride to have the bishop pair and no one talked about the "Bishop without the counterpart". Again another concept I routinely use in my own online and OTB chess.

I love your human empathetic attitude but the neural networks do offer exciting new concepts and underline ones which were not as clear before in my view.

Cheers, K

May-22-21  SChesshevsky: <...But the neural networks do offer exciting new concepts...>

I'm somewhat skeptical on how much neural networks have discovered related to chess principles. I do believe they have made one huge change in chess behavior though.

Neural networks seem to have greatly expanded the notion of "how much can I get away with?" in chess.

Think two examples you give show this. Thorn pawns, unless obvious, can either be crushingly binding or an extended weakness. When attempted early on, whether strength of weakness is usually unclear for humans, not so for computers.

The same can be said for the mentioned Stoofleves sacs. Or other computer tendencies to sac. Which may be most obvious in many A0 wins v. Stockfish. While humans can usually determine there is some compensation, it is typically too deep to ascertain whether there is adequate compensation. Not so for the computer who clearly sees the expected outcome.

Think we have to be careful with the distinction between brilliance and just seeing into the future via calculation. As I wouldn't call a guy who can predict the future stock market or the weather 100% a genius if I know he has tomorrows news today, I'm hesitant to call computers, nn or otherwise, brilliant when they stretch chess limits already knowing the outcome much later down the line.

Aug-13-21
Premium Chessgames Member
  gezafan: <clifton: Do you not consider imigrants to be American? After all, every citizen of America is an imigrant, except for Native-Americans.>

This is false. Those born and raised in a country are not immigrants. By definition immigrants come from other countries.

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