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< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 3 OF 3 ·
Later Kibitzing> |
| Jul-29-09 | | JG27Pyth: Looking at this with the computer, (Toga II) 21...Ne3 (which is the move I went for) evaluates quite close to Nxf2, and goes up the exchange earlier. I'm certain I'd prefer it OTB. Both variations evaulate at roughly -2.0 17 ply. Ne3 is the preferred line.*(although the computer initially mildly prefers 21...Nxf2 at move 21, within just three played ply it begins to markedly prefer Ne3 ...the Ne3 variation generates more favorable evaluations: roughly -2.3 to -1.9) I think Ne3 has to be considered a full second solution. (If you saw that White could defend with Ne4 and were able to calculate that when the smoke cleared Black would be up the exchange.) |
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Jul-29-09
 | | Jimfromprovidence: I got the game line until move 26 for white and went for 26 e3 instead.
click for larger view It loses the exchange but should keep white's queen on the board. |
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| Jul-29-09 | | YouRang: I notice that I wasn't alone in trying to make <21...Ne3> work. Unfortunately, I thought I succeeded. :-(
(Actually, checking with the computer, I see that it's not a bad move -- but certainly not best, and it has some of tricks that I neglected.) |
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| Jul-29-09 | | zanshin: I went with <21...Ne3> and find that I am in good company. However, subsequent Rybka analysis recommends the Knight sac <22.Ne4>
click for larger viewI'm not quite sure why, but I think it has to do with clearing the 3rd rank for the White Queen. |
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Jul-29-09
 | | kevin86: Woe is I;I missed the sac at f2 followed by the queen picking off the rook via pin. Brilliant play by Max-to the Max |
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Jul-29-09
 | | gawain: I saw all the game moves up to and including Qa7+ yet failed to realize that I had actually found the solution. Did not notice that it was a double attack! Woe is me. |
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| Jul-29-09 | | WhiteRook48: I didn't notice a sac on f2; i wouldn't get it if the solution was staring me in the face |
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| Jul-29-09 | | lzromeu: I'm in <21...Ne3> team...
Rybka's recomend 22Ne4 looks a disaster, because 23Qxe4: threat mate in 2 or take the rook. |
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| Jul-29-09 | | RoseBuster: Hm, I tried Qa7 which doesn't look very smart now. Looks like I forgot that if I attack a rook with my own rook, the opponent rook is attacking me back, lol. Otherwise it could have been a nice double attack. I need to defeat my own carelessness somehow. |
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| Jul-29-09 | | JG27Pyth: Zanshin... <I'm not quite sure why, but I think [22.Ne4] has to do with clearing the 3rd rank for the White Queen.> It's the best answer in light of the threatened Qg2# 22.fxe3 leads to Bxe3+ Bf2 Bxf2+ Kxf2 Qa7+ (22.Nd4 is another possibility, but Ne4 is better... oh and 22.f3 is clearly a catastrophe). Also: well <phooey> *sigh*... I have to retract my analysis/evaluation of 21...Ne3, although it is a good move my evaluation process with the computer had certain breakdowns in it which made my conclusions a bit *rosier* than was justified. :[ Ne3 technically remains a full second solution IMHO... but as <You Rang> pointed out (prompting me to double check my work) yes, it's tricky, and actually I think (that is, the computer tells me to think) Nxf2 is more straightforward. |
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| Jul-29-09 | | wanabe2000: <PinnedPiece: No credit for me. I went 21...Ne3> So did I... |
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Jul-29-09
 | | sbevan: Well, I got it but White fought as hard as he could! |
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| Jul-29-09 | | johnlspouge: < <JG27Pyth> wrote: [snip] Ne3 technically remains a full second solution IMHO... but as <You Rang> pointed out [snip] yes, it's tricky > I am a bit surprised that people have not examined 21...Bxf2+ much, because on superficial evaluation (with & without computer), it looked comparable to 21...Nxf2. It also seems a simple win of material, although the final position is still definitely a mid-game. |
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Jul-29-09
 | | playground player: I couldn't make Nxf2 work, so I, too, joined the 21...Ne3 contingent. I think White really must take the Knight, and then his King comes under fire from Black's Bishop (22...Bxe3+) and Queen. |
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| Jul-29-09 | | ruzon: I couldn't make 21...♘e3 work, so I, too, joined the 21...♘xf2 contingent. I know White really must take the Knight, and then his King comes under fire from Black's Bishop {(22...Bxf2+) and Queen. Then I worked it out as far as 24...e5 and figured I would capture the Rook. I successfully played Guess-the-Move after that. |
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| Jul-29-09 | | Coigach: <<ruzon>...I worked it out as far as 24...e5...> My thought process too, except I started with 21..Bxf2. It looks like there could be a forced mate in the starting position, but when that doesn't work the win of an exchange is a good result. |
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| Jul-29-09 | | sileps: I missed a wednesday. Crap.
I went for 21..Ne3. Good thing I'm in good company though. |
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| Jul-29-09 | | wals: The following may be of help to those that need help[Event "Antwerpen"]
[Site "Antwerpen"]
[Date "1950.??.??"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Arthur Dunkelblum"]
[Black "Max Euwe"]
[Result "0-1"]
[ECO "E03"]
[Annotator "Rybka 3 1-cpu (30m)"]
[PlyCount "64"]
E03: Open Catalan: 5 ♕a4+ ♘bd7 6 ♕xc4 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e6 3. g3 d5 4. Bg2 dxc4
5. Qa4+ Nbd7 6. Qxc4 a6 7. Qc2 c5 8. Nf3 b5 9. Ne5 Nd5 10. Nxd7 Qxd7 11. dxc5
Bb7 12. O-O Rc8 13. Qb3 Bxc5 14. Bd2 O-O (14... Nf6 15. Bxb7 $15) 15. Rd1 Qe7 (
15... Qc7 16. a3 $15) 16. Nc3 White threatens to win material: ♘c3xd5 Nf6 17.
Bxb7 Qxb7 18. Be1 Rc7 19. Rd3 Ng4 20. Rad1 Qa8 21. Rd7 Nxf2 Mate threat
22. Bxf2 (22. Bxf2 Bxf2+ Combination) (22. -- Qh1# Mate threat) 22... Bxf2+
23. Kxf2 Qa7+ 24. R7d4 e5 25. Nd5 Rd7 (25... Rc4 26. Qa3 Ra8 27. Ne7+ Kh8 28.
Qf3 exd4 29. Nc6 ) 26. Qe3 exd4 27. Rxd4 Rfd8 28. Ne7+ Kf8 29. Nc6 Qc5 30.
Rxd7 Qxe3+ 31. Kxe3 Rxd7 32. Nb4 a5 (32... a5 33. Nc6 Rc7 34. Nxa5 Rc2 ) 0-1 |
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Jul-29-09
 | | OhioChessFan: <---------joins the Ne3 Club |
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| Jul-29-09 | | muralman: Brother, nothing like having to play half the game for the player. This is an exercise in probabilities. Not my thing. |
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| Jul-29-09 | | learningchess24: I've been studying the position quite well, but I saw Ne3! would be the best bet leading Black having a strong attack!. If Ne3..(threatening Qg2#) then White has many options to move. If f3 then white has a discovered check on c5.. If 22. fxe3? Bxe3+, 23. Bf2, Bxf2+, 24. Kxf2, Qa7+, 25. R7d4, e5, 26. Nd5, Rd7, 27. Qe3, exd4, 28. Ne7+, Rxe7, 29. Qxd4, and black is a rook ahead with the attack. Now white's chance to move is Nd5 or Ne4. Now let's analyze. Ne5?? is an obvious blunder because Black will simply take the rook plus a pin on the e1 and White should not dare to make a check because the King will just move making a wide open a1-a8 diagonal for the Black's Queen. So, Ne4 would be his best bet for this trick.. Lemme think, Ne4 blocks temporary the wide open a1-a8 diagonal and making his Queen available on the 3rd rank. Black has a counter for this. If ...Qxe4 fxe3, Rxd7 Rxd7,Bxe3+ Bf2,Bxf2 Kxf2,Rc8 leaving Black a great advantage of space and pawn structure. White's pawn at e2 will be doomed sooner or later. |
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| Jul-29-09 | | mccarthpm: this was easy??? |
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| Jul-30-09 | | SamAtoms1980: At first I thought 21 ... Ne3 was crushing, putting up too many threats for White to deal with. I was darted by 22 Ne4! and White gets out for only a pawn down. |
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Aug-06-09
 | | LIFE Master AJ: Has anyone had a chnce to look at my notes? (Just checking.) |
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Kibitzing
sac: 21...Nxf2