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| Oct-02-11 | | ajile: <morfishine: <sevenseaman> Did you read my post? The knight is not immune to capture on <d5>. Black plays <14...Nxd5> which threatens Whites Queen: an important tempo
We know that Black will lose the exchange; the Question is: Whats the best way for Black to lose the exchange? The ans: <14...Nxd5> The real point of the puzzle is that Black loses the exchange whether white plays <14.Nb5> or <14.Nd5>> But does losing the exchange mean losing the game?
If Black simply takes the Nd5 what does White have long term? After 14.Nd5 cxd5, 15.c3 Qd6 16.cxd4 dxe4 Black has a pawn plus minor piece for the rook. Black has plenty of fight left in these positions so is the puzzle fair when Black made a poor move to quickly lose? |
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| Oct-02-11 | | Patriot: I looked at this for about 20 minutes and decided on 14.Nd5. Here's some sample lines I considered: A) 14...cxd5 15.c3 Rxe4 16.Qa7 
B) 14...Bxd5 15.c3 Rxe4 16.Qa7
C) 14...Nxd5 15.exd5 leaves the bishop hanging and 16.c3 is threatened. D) 14...Rxe4 15.Qa7
In line C, I made the mistake of evaluating the position too early. I spent most of my time looking at other threatening moves (like 14.a3) so I spent less time on the main line. |
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| Oct-02-11 | | morfishine: <sevenseaman> No problem: once its noticed that White can force the loss of the exchange, it becomes clear. Then, the ball is in Blacks court who has to decide: "Whats the best way for me to lose the exchange?" He did not chose the best way. <Ajile> On your comment <Black has plenty of fight left in these positions so is the puzzle fair when Black made a poor move to quickly lose?> Very Good Point. If an insane puzzle (Sunday) features best play, then we can really enjoy the outcome. If it doesn't, then everybody is quick to point out alternatives. Fair or not, it sure generates kbitzing! As long as we learn something from it, thats all one can ask for. I admire those solvers who forward very good alternatives to what actually happened. We see it often. Its one of the most enjoyable features of the POTD <agb2002> I wouldn't worry about 2-centipawns: Both 14.Nb5 and 14.Nd5 force the loss of the exchange, which is all Bogo got anyways |
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| Oct-02-11 | | stst: see two main lines:
1. the crack for W Q to get to a7, then Qa8 will mate,
2. a fork right at c3, after the N goes (a sac, most probably.)2 is easier to achieve, though both 1 & 2 depend on whether Bk falls into the trap. Line 2 goes first:
14.Nd5, if either cxd5 or Bxd5
15.c3 and wins material.
if 14...Rxd5 exd5, Bk loses the R
Line 1:
14.Rd1, if Rxd1
15.Qa7 Kd8
16.Rxd1+, Bk loses the R too.
if K does not move, Qa8# next.
see how the challenger to Alekhine thinks.... |
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| Oct-02-11 | | stst: ya, he saw something much more ingenious - a subsequent fork for N@c6!! |
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| Oct-02-11 | | ajile: The scare tactic worked so I guess that's all that counts. Black played a suboptimal move and lost quickly. The game is pretty but I don't think it really qualifies for a real puzzle since Black fights for a draw with correct play. |
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| Oct-02-11 | | agb2002: <morfishine: ...
<agb2002> I wouldn't worry about 2-centipawns: Both 14.Nb5 and 14.Nd5 force the loss of the exchange, which is all Bogo got anyways> I was being a bit ironic about the common habit of comparing computer evaluations ;-) |
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| Oct-02-11 | | newton296: I noticed blacks Q was only protection of Rd4 . okay, tried to deflect the Q with a3 and saw Qd6 loses to Nf3 and ...Qc5 leaves the rook pinned so Ne2 winning exchange. then I saw ...Qb6 and dead end. then I saw Nd5 cxd5 c3 Qxb4 and figured that was the best move but black is still fighting. alright , let me check solution. hmm? I got the right line but black panicked and blundered the game away on the spot! at least I found the main line but houdini says best play is about even. Efim Bogoljubov - Muller, Triberg - 1934
click for larger viewAnalysis by Houdini 1.5a w32:
1.  (0.39): 16...Qb6 17.Qxb6 cxb6 18.exd5 Nxd5 19.Rfe1 b5 20.c4 bxc4 2.  (1.01): 16...b6 17.exd5 Nxd5 18.Rac1 Nf6 19.Rcd1 Re8 20.Rd2 Qa3 |
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| Oct-02-11 | | newton296: <Helloween:Black's best defense was 14...cxd5 when 15.c3 Qxb2 16.Qxd4! Qb6 17.Qxb6 cxb6 18.exd5 Nxd5 when Black looks to have some compensation for the exchange, but 19.f4! removes all doubt of White's ± advantage.> f4 removes all doubt? how about ...g6 Rc1 ...Rd8? still pretty even. I'll bet you couldn't win this endgame with 10 tries vs fritz or (EGT) houdini 24 ply can't even find a win!
Efim Bogoljubov - Muller, Triberg - 1934
click for larger viewAnalysis by Houdini 1.5a w32:
1. (0.33): 21.c4 Nb4 22.a3 Nd3 23.Rcd1 Nxe5 24.fxe5 Rxd1 25.Rxd1 Bxc4 26.Kf2 b5 27.Ke3 Kc7 2. (0.31): 21.a3 f6 22.Nf3 Kb8 23.Nd4 Bf7 24.f5 b5 25.Rf3 Rc8 26.Kf2 |
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| Oct-02-11 | | stst: < Z...c: I don't get 14.... Qc5 - why cannot Black take that knight by any one of his pawn, knight or bishop?> -- of these three, best is NxN, but still the fork of c3 exists. The other two (PxN or BxN,) c3 right the way to fork. |
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| Oct-02-11 | | hedgeh0g: Finding 14.Nd5!! wasn't too difficult since the black queen and rook are begging to be pawn-forked. The key to the combination is the white queen's access to a7, where, combined with the Ne5, it poses some serious problems for Black's king. Without this resource, Black would have a Rxe4 intermezzo. |
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| Oct-02-11 | | checkmateyourmove: Ridiculousnessssss |
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Oct-02-11
 | | Diademas: I would never have found that move and Im still not sure its sound.
Looking forward to good old monday, when allmost all of us are heroes! |
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| Oct-02-11 | | TheBish: Bogoljubov vs Muller, 1934 White to play (14.?) "Insane"
It's hard to believe how many of these positions are right out of the opening! How great is it to have a winning position before move 20? I decided before too long that the winning move must have something to do with vacating the knight from c3 to set up c2-c3, forking the major pieces. Nothing seemed to work, since any move of the Nc3 allowed 14...Rxe4, attacking the queen. That is, until I found the right square. 14. Nb5!!
This is such an outrageous move, I had to give it two exclams. Of course, 14...Qxb5 allows simply 15. Qxd4, winning the exchange, as does 14...axb5 or 14...cxb5 15. c3 Rxe4 16. cxb4 Rxe3 17. fxe3. 14...Rc4
Naturally, 14...Rxd6 allows 15. Nxd6+, but any other rook move (such as 14...Rdd8) allows 15. Na7+ Kb8 16. Naxc6+ (the point!) bxc6 17. Nxc6+, winning the queen. 15. Qa7!
Threatening 16. Qa8#. Black was hoping for 15. Nxc4 Bxc4, regaining the exchange. 15...Nd7
Or 15...Kd8 16. Qb8+ Bc8 (or 16...Ke7 17. Qxh8) 17. Nxc4, winning the exchange. 16. Qa8+ Nb8 17. Na7+ Kd8 18. Qxb8+ Bc8 19. Nxf7+, winning. |
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| Oct-03-11 | | TheBish: I went for the 14. Nb5 line (didn't fully analyze 14. Nd5), but one point I didn't see (once I saw the game score) was that after 14. Nd5 Nxd5 15. exd5 Rxd5 16. Qa7 Kd8 17. Qb8+ Bc8? and now not 18. Nxf7+ but 18. Nxc6+! winning the queen! (Fritz pointed this out to me.) |
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| Oct-03-11 | | TheBish: I guess I missed this after all (as did everyone else who opted for 14. Nb5 over 14. Nd5). Fritz points out that 14. Nb5 is answered by 14...Qxb5 15. Qxd4 Rd8 16. Qc3 Nxe4 17. Qe3 Qxe5 18. Rfe1 f5 19. f3 Qxb2 20. fxe4 Qb6!, when Black has two pawns for the exchange, with an equal position. |
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| Oct-03-11 | | M.Hassan: I went through two lengthy ways. one starting with 14.f4 and the other with 14.Rad1.None produces mate in several moves or appreciable advantage to one side.
I am tired and can not produce the two lines and I admit that 14.Nd5 never occured to me. |
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| Oct-03-11 | | morfishine: <ajile> Your move-order <14.Nd5 cxd5, 15.c3 Qd6 16.cxd4 dxe4> is even better. Also, your comment about <scare tactic> explains a lot. Muller sure looked like he was 'rattled' |
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| Oct-03-11 | | sevenseaman: <TheBish: I guess I missed this after all (as did everyone else who opted for 14. Nb5 over 14. Nd5). Fritz points out that 14. Nb5 is answered by 14...Qxb5 15. Qxd4 Rd8 16. Qc3 Nxe4 17. Qe3 Qxe5 18. Rfe1 f5 19. f3 Qxb2 20. fxe4 Qb6!, when Black has two pawns for the exchange, with an equal position.> The Bish after <14...Qxb5 15. Qxd4 Rd8 > how about <16. Qa7> in lieu of 16. Q c3>? Kindly check this one with Fritz and see if it is enthused. To me it looks fairly won for White. Black taking White's e5N is of little help as the White Rs come into play to reinforce Q's action along the base line. You may work out the details for yourself, the disposal is surprisingly swift. Pending Fritz's verdict, I believe <14. Nb5> achieves the same 'Doppler' effect as done by <14. Nd5>. |
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| Oct-03-11 | | morfishine: <sevenseaman> and <TheBish> <Qa7> is one of White's main threats; Thats why keeping the g1-a7 diagonal blocked to white queens access is the basis of Black's defense, even if it means letting a rook die there. After cxd4 the diagonal is still blocked, this time by a white pawn! Keeping this diagonal blocked gives Black just enough time to consolidate and hold-on, at least for awhile, and certainly longer than Muller! |
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| Oct-03-11 | | sevenseaman: <cxd4> where and when? Which move number? This is the position I am talking about (after White's <16. Qa7> move).
click for larger view<The Bish> suggests <16. Qc3> and I propose <16. Qa7> Work out your line from here. |
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| Oct-03-11 | | ajile: <TheBish: Bogoljubov vs Muller, 1934
White to play (14.?) "Insane"
It's hard to believe how many of these positions are right out of the opening! How great is it to have a winning position before move 20?>But in this game it's not a winning position. It took a bad move by Black to make it winning. |
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| Oct-03-11 | | oh5252: This quiz is somewhat strainge.
14...cxd5 gives nothing to white. |
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| Jan-19-12 | | sevenseaman: Going by his play in this game alone, Bogoljubov must have been one of the finest thinkers of the game. Having thoroughly studied his brilliant moves from the 14th onwards <14. Nd3 Ng4 15. Qe2 Qa5 16. f3 Ne5 17. b4 Rxb4 18. Nxb4 Qxb4 19. Qe3 Qb2 20. Rb1 Qxc2 21. Qa7 Kd7 22. Qd4> was the best I could find on a day barely 4 months later. |
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May-02-14
 | | Gottschalk: Game from the match Bogoljubow x Hans Mueller
Bogo scores (+7 =5 -3) |
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Kibitzing
+ sac: 15.Qxd4