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| Apr-25-19 | | Sally Simpson: ***
According to this: '31 Yet Other Chess Facts Most People Don’t Know' (number 15) https://thechessworld.com/articles/... Marshall became the first American to defeat a Soviet player in an international tournament. (the game on this thread.) I was wondering. Does that make this game Bogoljubov vs Marshall, 1924 the first time a Soviet player beat an American in an international tournament. *** |
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Apr-25-19
 | | beatgiant: <Sally Simpson>
No. I'm not sure this is the first, but at least there was O Chajes vs Bogoljubov, 1923 |
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| Apr-26-19 | | Boomie: <First American to defeat a Russian> This game qualifies, eh?
Marshall vs Chigorin, 1902 |
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| Apr-26-19 | | Sally Simpson: ***
Hi Beatgiant,
Think it refers to first player actually born in America. Chajes was born in Austria. Hi Boomie,
Who ever came up with this is using the term 'Soviet'. The Soviet Union came into being in 1922. But I'd say yours is just as good. It is rather a silly stat, I was only interested in it because Bogoljubov beat Marshall so was he the first in reverse. *** |
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| Apr-26-19 | | whiteshark: Steinitz - Chigorin World Championship Match (1889) |
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Apr-26-19
| | beatgiant: <Sally Simpson>
I agree with you that "Soviet" indicates games played during the existence of the Soviet Union. However, if you are requiring that the "American" must have been born in the US, then you would also need to require that the "Soviet" must have been born in the Soviet Union. Bogoljubov was not; he was born a long time before the Soviet Union existed. |
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Apr-26-19
| | beatgiant: <Sally Simpson>
If we are looking for the first time a person born in the USSR beat a person born in the US, it might have been Bronstein vs Santasiere, 1945. |
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Apr-26-19
| | beatgiant: <Sally Simpson>
And if we are looking for the first time a person born in the US beat a person born in the USSR, I can't think of any before the 1960's (maybe Fischer vs Geller, 1961) |
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| Apr-26-19 | | Sally Simpson: ***
Hi Beatgiant,
It does indeed look like who ever found this 'Yet Other Chess Facts Most People Don’t Know.' has not thought it through. I'd go along with that, they need a player born after 1922 for them to be classed as a Soviet player. (Soviet Union offically started on 30th Dec. 1922) An American, born when America was called America, beating a Soviet player born when the Soviet Union was called the Soviet Union. Now the fun starts.
I can beat Fischer - Geller with Spassky vs Lombardy, 1960 and staying with Lombardy. V Selimanov vs Lombardy, 1957. *** |
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| Apr-26-19 | | Boomie: <first time a person born in the US beat a person born in the USSR> Fine comes to mind. He was beating Russians in the 1930's. At Margate, he beat Alekhine and Menchik, for example. Margate (1937) |
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| Apr-26-19 | | john barleycorn: <Boomie: <first time a person born in the US beat a person born in the USSR> Fine comes to mind. ...>
Pillsbury, for sure did. Whether he was the first, that I don't know. |
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| Apr-26-19 | | john barleycorn: however, <Boomie> boomboom was misrepresenting <Sally Simpson>'s point: <Sally Simpson: ***
...
An American, born when America was called America, beating a Soviet player born when the Soviet Union was called the Soviet Union. ...> |
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| Apr-26-19 | | Sally Simpson: ***
Hi Boomie,
The site in question:
https://thechessworld.com/articles/... Say: 'Soviet Player' we are looking for a Soviet player born after 1922. Averbakh was born in 1922 but in February. The USSR 'born' December 1922. Hopefully nobody will fall for trap I nearly fell into when I was just about to poke about in Reshevsky's past when I remembered he was not born in America. When we have finally found the game some hapless individual without a wife, girlfriend, hobby or a purpose in life will find the last Soviet born player to lose to a born American. (but, thankfully, not yet...there are still a bunch of Soviet born chess players still knocking about.) *** |
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| Apr-26-19 | | Boomie: <Hopefully nobody will fall for trap> Well, I did hook, line, and sinker. After 1922...go figure. |
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Apr-26-19
| | beatgiant: To summarize:
The current game (Marshall vs Bogoljubov, 1924) is the first time a US citizen beat a USSR citizen (both nationalities as of the time the game was played). The game O Chajes vs Bogoljubov, 1923 is a candidate for the first time a USSR citizen beat a US citizen (both nationalities as of the time the game was played). The game Bronstein vs Santasiere, 1945 is a candidate for the first time a person born in the USSR during its existence beat a person born in the US. The game V Selimanov vs Lombardy, 1957 is a candidate for the first time a person born in the US beat a person born in the USSR during its existence. |
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Apr-26-19
| | beatgiant: Earlier example for US-born beating USSR-born: Taimanov vs Larry Evans, 1954 |
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Apr-26-19
| | beatgiant: Early example for US citizen beating Russian subject: Steinitz vs Chigorin, 1889 Early example for US-born player beating Russian Empire-born player: Showalter vs Chigorin, 1896 I hardly spent any time looking for those, so I won't be surprised if other kibitzers post earlier ones. |
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Apr-26-19
| | beatgiant: Early example of Russian subject (I think) beating US citizen: Loyd vs Winawer, 1867. Both were born in their respective country/empire of citizenship/subjecthood. |
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| Apr-27-19 | | Sally Simpson: ***
Good Work Beatgiant, especially with the Evans game. Think together we have added more details to their 'Other Chess Facts Most People Don’t Know.' section. Also beneficial knowledge wise. Did not know that the USSR and the United Kingdom both officially came into being in 1922. *** |
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Apr-27-19
| | beatgiant: <Sally Simpson>
<Did not know that the USSR and the United Kingdom both officially came into being in 1922.> You're the Brit, but what I learned in school was 1707 was the year of the Acts of Union creating the UK, and 1922 was when Irish Free State dropped out of it. Of course, this is crucial knowledge in case you want to find "the first time a British player beat a Soviet player" (maybe Alekhine vs Yates, 1923) but I'll leave it for you to define all the conditions, find the games and figure out which is the best page on which to post your list... which sounds like lots of work ;-) |
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| Apr-27-19 | | Sally Simpson: ***
Hi beatgiant,
No United Kingdown until Ireland joined in 1801 (before then it was just Great Britain (Great as in the size) then when part of Ireland dropped out in 1922 it is the United Kingdowm we now have now. https://www.historic-uk.com/History... The Alternative U.K. as opposed to 'Anarchy in the UK.' If/When Scotland split it will no longer exist.
Think the conditions for a Soviet player should be born after 1922. All this started because I just curious if the coincidence was Efim Bogoljubov being the first Soviet (by the old conditions) to beat an American and it was Frank Marshall. *** |
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| Mar-01-21 | | Gaito: The following diagram shows the first critical position of the game:
click for larger view
BLACK TO MOVE
Bogoljubov played here 22...Bd4? which turned out to be a serious mistake. Correct was 22...dxe4, for example: 23.Nxc6 bxc6 24.Nxe4 Rxe4 25.Rxe4 Nxe4 26.Qxe4 g6 27.f5! Qd6 28.Ba2 Kg7, with an equal game (see diagram below):
click for larger view |
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| Mar-01-21 | | Gaito: The following position was also very interesting:
click for larger view
WHITE TO MOVE
Marshall made up his mind to sacrifice an exchange with 28.Rxf2!?. That was a brilliant decision; however, the computer engines (LcZero and SF13) believe that the sacrifice of the exchange was unnecessary. Instead, they propose 28.Kg2 with a very high evaluation in White's favor (+8.64 LcZero, and +7.80 SF13). A sample variation: 28.Kg2 Qxb2 29.Rb1! Qxc3 30.Rb7 with unavoidable mate (diagram):
click for larger view
BLACK MOVES. WHITE MATES IN TWO. |
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| Mar-01-21 | | sudoplatov: I check on the position after 22...de4 (after I found that Stockfish "thinks" that 22.,.Bd4 loses) and found that after 27.f5 Qf6, 27Qc4 gives White about 1.2 Pawns. Gaito's suggestion or 27...Qd6 seems better as White only is up about .5 Pawns. I'll look at this later with a deeper version (about 25 ply or so). Marshall seems to keep the initiative in all cases. |
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| Mar-02-21 | | Gaito: 32.e6!! was a most elegant high-class move by Frank J. Marshall.
This game was exceedingly beautiful and very energetically played throughout by Marshall. |
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