chessgames.com
Members · Prefs · Laboratory · Collections · Openings · Endgames · Sacrifices · History · Search Kibitzing · Kibitzer's Café · Chessforums · Tournament Index · Players · Kibitzing
Joseph Henry Blackburne vs Henry Bird
North of Ireland Congress (1892), Belfast IRL, rd 4, Sep-15
Spanish Game: Bird Variation (C61)  ·  0-1

ANALYSIS [x]

FEN COPIED

Click Here to play Guess-the-Move
Given 25 times; par: 132 [what's this?]

explore this opening
find similar games 40 more Blackburne/Bird games
PGN: download | view | print Help: general | java-troubleshooting

TIP: Some games have photographs. These are denoted in the game list with the icon.

PGN Viewer:  What is this?
For help with this chess viewer, please see the Olga Chess Viewer Quickstart Guide.
PREMIUM MEMBERS CAN REQUEST COMPUTER ANALYSIS [more info]

Kibitzer's Corner
< Earlier Kibitzing  · PAGE 2 OF 2 ·  Later Kibitzing>
Apr-14-22
Premium Chessgames Member
  MissScarlett: I'm adding this reconstructed finish from the point of current termination, as given by Harding in his Blackburne book (p.324):

<67. Rb6 a3 68. Rh6 a2 69. Rh1 Ka3 70. Kd3 Rd7+ 71. Kc3 b4+ 72. Kc4 Kb2 73. Rh2+ Ka3 74. Rh1 b3 75. Kb5 Rd2 0-1>

Apr-14-22  Z truth 000000001: We're waiting... (RE: check <Missy> edit vs. Renette)

(Good old <Missy>, a day late and a pound short)

Apr-14-22
Premium Chessgames Member
  MissScarlett: I'm betting that Renette copied Harding, too.
Apr-14-22  Z truth 000000001: The Source in the game PGN only has <Belfast News-Letter> and not Harding.

The obvious implications shouldn't need to be spelled out...

(For the interested - the 66 move version of this game comes from Mason's BCM version)

Apr-14-22
Premium Chessgames Member
  MissScarlett: <The Source in the game PGN only has <Belfast News-Letter> and not Harding>

After the PGN, the gods have put the Kibitzing.

Apr-14-22
Premium Chessgames Member
  jessicafischerqueen:

I think pgns should be sourced as clearly as possible, particularly in the case of compound sources where a game score from primary source was altered in a subsequent book. That said, I do understand the wish to keep pgns as brief as possible, given that a fuller data provenance can be displayed in the kibbutz box, as it is here.

But what about cases in which someone wishes to export a chessgames.com pgn to another database? In this case, exporting relevant kibbutzing on data provenance would prove a pain, and unnecessarily so. It won't kill anyone to provide a compound source tag that clearly lists the non-primary source that reprinted the primary source, as in the case of this game.

I keep a modest database, but I add steadily to it and I would prefer to be able to just copy/paste a pgn than have to look through every kibbutz to make sure I didn't miss any details on provenance.

Apr-14-22
Premium Chessgames Member
  MissScarlett: <But what about cases in which someone wishes to export a chessgames.com pgn to another database?>

We should treat <cg.com> as an end in itself. When taking material from other sources, does one do so blindly? Why expect less of others?

Apr-15-22
Premium Chessgames Member
  jessicafischerqueen:

<MissScarlett>

hmm I hadn't thought about it like that- thanks for your amplification. I can't really disagree with much of what you added.

That said, I will continue to add compound sources to any pgns I publish here at cg.com- particularly in those cases where I found a primary contemporaneous source listed inside of a book. In these cases I want readers to know that I did not necessarily have direct access to that contemporaneous game score.

As per <z's> original suggestion some months ago.

Apr-15-22  Hans Renette: MissScarlett: I'm betting that Renette copied Harding, too. -- Why should I?
Apr-15-22  Z free or die: Straight into the <Memorable Quotes>...

Memorable Quotes chessforum

Apr-15-22
Premium Chessgames Member
  jessicafischerqueen:

<z> Are you taking bets on where <MissScarlett's> response will fall on the <Stanford-Binet polite to rude 1-10 scale>?

I am willing to bet 500 dollars on "6".

Apr-15-22  Z free or die: I'm laying low, mostly due to lack of time.

But I'll return later with some (hopefully) constructive reminders about compound sourcing, and a couple of PGN related items.

Apr-15-22
Premium Chessgames Member
  MissScarlett: <I'm laying low...>

I think you mean lying low, unless you're a hen.

Apr-16-22
Premium Chessgames Member
  MissScarlett: <Hans Renette: MissScarlett: I'm betting that Renette copied Harding, too. -- Why should I?>

I would put it this way - why shouldn't you? Did you present the 75-move version?

Apr-16-22  Hans Renette: Apparently yes.
Apr-16-22
Premium Chessgames Member
  MissScarlett: Was it the same 75-move version as Harding/above?
Apr-16-22  Z free or die: Good gracious <Missy>, did you even try to check this out yourself on the web?

I try, and it is.

Apr-16-22  Z free or die: (Which would make sense if they both utilized the same source, unlike, (not to point fingers) whoever claimed <CG> used the <Belfast News-Letter> (which I suspect wasn't consulted directly))
Apr-16-22
Premium Chessgames Member
  MissScarlett: <Good gracious <Missy>, did you even try to check this out yourself on the web?>

Yes, but limited preview rights precluded it. What does Renette have to say about the <BNL>'s garbled score?

< whoever claimed <CG> used the <Belfast News-Letter> (which I suspect wasn't consulted directly))>

I checked the <BNL>. But having looked at what Harding had to say about the game, I was already alerted to the problem with the score. Why should it be a surprise if Renette had done the same?

Apr-16-22  Z free or die: Damn it <Missy>, all these complications and you only reveal them now?

<We should treat <cg.com> as an end in itself. When taking material from other sources, does one do so blindly? Why expect less of others?>

Yes, maybe I should have paid attention to Nosibor's preceding comment, but I keyed off your adding moves past 66.

But I saw you added moves from Harding

<I'm adding this reconstructed finish from the point of current termination, as given by Harding in his Blackburne book (p.324):>

and then crediting <BN-L>. Which isn't correct. If you used Harding for the reconstruction then you should put Harding in the Source. If you wish to credit <BN-L> over the other source mention by Nosibor you might explain why in your comment.

Really it seems both sources should be included after Harding to be fair.

In fair, I'd like to see *for myself* the scans of both newspapers. They're out of copyright, and a scan isn't a creative or derivative work according to US copyright law.

It would very helpful, and I claim a duty, for historians to help other historian check their work.

Since Harding is copyrighted, you might even consider including the <BN-L> moves here, and note where you (and Harding) decided to alter the score in your (and Harding's) reconstruciton.

Too much to ask? I don't think so.

Apr-16-22
Premium Chessgames Member
  MissScarlett: Not too much to ask, but too long to fit in a 64-character SourceNote.
Apr-16-22  Z free or die: And there should be a <Note> (or <SourceNote>) in the PGN alerting users that the movelist (source) is a reconstruction from the original sources - even if the <Source> tag correctly credits Harding (or Renette) the fact that they reconstructed the movelist should be noted.
Apr-16-22
Premium Chessgames Member
  MissScarlett: <And there should be a <Note> (or <SourceNote>) in the PGN >

How about a PGN note if a game was adjourned?

Apr-16-22  Z free or die: < 64-character SourceNote.>

We all agree this artificial limit is a liability. Shame I never pressed Daniel as to exactly what his rational was, but at the time I was really happy just to get the Source tag going.

Apr-16-22  Z free or die: RE: <adjournments> in the PGN

I put those into Z-base, usually as a comment, but maybe (can't remember) sometime in a Note. It's natural to put it in the movelist since it automatically notes where the adjournment occurred. It's useful to include info on when play resumed as well, if available.

A PGN tag might be of merit since that would allow software to filter on such games. It was considered.

search thread:   
< Earlier Kibitzing  · PAGE 2 OF 2 ·  Later Kibitzing>

NOTE: Create an account today to post replies and access other powerful features which are available only to registered users. Becoming a member is free, anonymous, and takes less than 1 minute! If you already have a username, then simply login login under your username now to join the discussion.

Please observe our posting guidelines:

  1. No obscene, racist, sexist, or profane language.
  2. No spamming, advertising, duplicate, or gibberish posts.
  3. No vitriolic or systematic personal attacks against other members.
  4. Nothing in violation of United States law.
  5. No cyberstalking or malicious posting of negative or private information (doxing/doxxing) of members.
  6. No trolling.
  7. The use of "sock puppet" accounts to circumvent disciplinary action taken by moderators, create a false impression of consensus or support, or stage conversations, is prohibited.
  8. Do not degrade Chessgames or any of it's staff/volunteers.

Please try to maintain a semblance of civility at all times.

Blow the Whistle

See something that violates our rules? Blow the whistle and inform a moderator.


NOTE: Please keep all discussion on-topic. This forum is for this specific game only. To discuss chess or this site in general, visit the Kibitzer's Café.

Messages posted by Chessgames members do not necessarily represent the views of Chessgames.com, its employees, or sponsors.
All moderator actions taken are ultimately at the sole discretion of the administration.

This game is type: CLASSICAL. Please report incorrect or missing information by submitting a correction slip to help us improve the quality of our content.

<This page contains Editor Notes. Click here to read them.>

Featured in the Following Game Collections[what is this?]
Impressive win !
from Birds Defense victories by InspiredByMorphy
R. L. BIRD-Defence
from BIRD On The Bird's Opening-n-The Bird-Defence by saveyougod
Challenger Bird
by Gottschalk
Round 4, 15.09.1892
from North of Ireland Congress (1892) by MissScarlett
Spanish Game: Bird Variation (C61) ยท 0-1
from 1883 Beyond London lks SP by fredthebear
R. L. BIRD-Defence
from BIRD On The Bird's Opening-n-The Bird-Defence by FrankTheTank
Impressive win !
from Birds Defense victories by dr.vinny

Home | About | Login | Logout | F.A.Q. | Profile | Preferences | Premium Membership | Kibitzer's Café | Biographer's Bistro | New Kibitzing | Chessforums | Tournament Index | Player Directory | Notable Games | World Chess Championships | Opening Explorer | Guess the Move | Game Collections | ChessBookie Game | Chessgames Challenge | Store | Privacy Notice | Contact Us

Copyright 2001-2023, Chessgames Services LLC