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| Jan-16-05 | | patzer2: <Minor Piece Activity> If 11...fxg5 12.hxg5+ Kg8 13.Rh8+ Kf7! 14. Qh5+ g6 15. Qh7+ Ke8 16. Rxf8+ Kxf8 17. f4 Bb4 18. 0-0-0 Qe8, then I like 19. Rh1 for White to win. Play might continue 19...Nxd4 20. Rh6 Qf7 21. Qh8+ Qg8 22. Qf6+ Ke8 23. Rh8 Qxh8 24. Qxh8+ Kd7 25. Qh7+ Be7 26. Qxg6 b6 27. Qh7  . |
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| Jan-16-05 | | Minor Piece Activity: 19. Rh1 Nxd4 isn't as good as 19. Rh1 Qf7 20. Qh6+ Qg7 when black is better. There's no need to grab a pawn when you have an extra piece. |
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| Jan-16-05 | | patzer2: The try 19. Rh1 Qf7 in this line is met by 20. Qh8+ Qg8 21. Qf6+ Ke8 22. Rh8 Qxh8 23. Qxh8+ Kd7 24. f5 gxf5 25. g6 Ne7 26. g7 , and White wins. |
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| Jan-16-05 | | Minor Piece Activity: Good point, I overlooked that. Black should take one of the perpetual checks offered by white then (eg 17. f4 Qe8) if there are no other improvements to be found (though for some reason I doubt that.) Although I am not convinced that the sacrifice is sound, it's clear that Alekhine's intuition or calculation made sure Bxh7+ was at least very close, on the fringe of right and wrong. Anyway, nice analyzing with you <patzer2> and <mdk>. =) |
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| Jan-16-05 | | mdz: OK, <Minor Piece Activity>, after 17. f4 Bb4, W gets on top similar way as vs. 17...Bc5 discussed in my earlier post: 18.0-0-0 Qd7 19.Qh8+ Ke7 20.Rh1 Qe8 21.Qf6+ Kd7 22.Rh8. As to my post on 16...Bxf8, sorry for the typo, I meant: 17.Qxg6+ Kd7 18.0-0-0.
<patzer2>, don't trust computers too much, W is playing for win here: 18...Nf5 19.Ne4 Qe8 20.Nf6 Bxf6 21.gf Qf7 22.Qh8+ Qg8 23.Qh3 Ke8 24.g4 Nd6 25.ed cd 26.g5 b6 27.Qd3 Kd7 28.Rh1 Kc7 29.Rh6 Bd7 30.Rxg6 Qh7 31.Rh6 Qxd3 32.cd Rf8 33.d4 a5 34.Kd2 Kc6 35.Ke3 Kb5 36.Rh7 Be8 37.f5 ef 38.Kf4 Bg6 39.Rg7 Bh5 40.Kxf5 Kc4 41.g6 Kxd4 42.Rh7 and W wins (though with some effort and 32 moves later :) |
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| Jan-16-05 | | mdz: Yes, <Minor Piece Activity>, 17. f4 Qe8 seems the ONLY way for B to reach a draw. All other lines so far have been shown to give W a win. This is almost a quote from my post 2 days ago :) At that time we did not all agree yet ;) |
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| Jan-17-05 | | Minor Piece Activity: <17. f4 Qe8 seems the ONLY way for B to reach a draw. > ...but only because a lot of the other lines involve white attempting to draw, since he's a piece down. =) <All other lines so far have been shown to give W a win> That's not really true. White is worse throughout most of the analysis, a fact supported by how we kept trying to find perpetuals for him instead of black (we already knew that black had a perpetual). In fact the only parts where black is worse is where he attempts to extract a win (i.e. my 17. f4 Bb4 attempt). Anyway 17. f4 Qe8 is not hard for black to find, the question is whether black has something better and it seems likely since white struggles to draw unless black wants to so. |
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| Jan-17-05 | | mdz: I guess you have not looked at the analysis above. If you can show one convincing line (except 17...Qe8) that gives B equal or better play, or refute any one of my lines that show W better, please do. |
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| Jan-17-05 | | Minor Piece Activity: Since *white,* and not black, is down a piece, *he* should be the one that proves he is winning. If things go naturally, black wins. Show me one convincing line which leads to white winning if black does not play 17...Qe8 (which he should, of course, play unless he wants to try for a win which might indeed exist.) Show me your winning line, mdz. |
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| Jan-17-05 | | mdz: Read my posts Jan 15-16. All the lines are there, none refuted yet. |
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| Jan-17-05 | | Minor Piece Activity: None of them have to be because they don't prove that white wins against a non 17...Qe8 move. They only show that (unless you made a mistake) white wins against a specific set of moves after 17...Qe8 which may not even be best play. I know Alekhine is a hero of yours but try to have some objectivity. As I said before, black has at least a draw and maybe a win since he is a piece up. If white has a win, it is not obvious and I doubt any of us will be able to demonstrate it because it is that deep. I'm not too sure why you disagree with this. |
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| Jan-17-05 | | patzer2: <mdz> Have you looked at 11...fxg5 12.hxg5+ Kg8 13.Rh8+ Kf7! 14. Qh5+ g6 15. Qh7+ Ke8 16. Rxf8+ Kxf8 17. f4 Nxd4 18. 0-0-0 Nf5 (versus the 18...Bf5 line you previously analyzed)? I don't see a win for White after 18...Nf5 here, as it appears Black has most of the winning chances and White is fighting for the draw. Appreciate if you have any analysis otherwise. |
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| Jan-17-05 | | Minor Piece Activity: <patzer2> mdz analyzed the 18...Nf5 line, not the Bf5 line I think. It starts with "don't trust comptuers." His analysis looks quite convincing and I like it. He seems to think though that just because I don't think it possible for me to find a totally convincing drawing line that it's not there. I think it *might* be there, but think that I'll never know for sure, the same with a white win. You'd have to sift through many different black and white responses, most likely coming up with wrong analyses. Something less broad like like which line is probably better, 17. f4 Bb4 or 17. f4 Ke8 is easier to handle. |
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| Jan-17-05 | | patzer2: <Minor Piece Activity> Thanks, I missed the connection there. <mdz> My apologies and thanks for the analysis. I'll look at it and respond later. |
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| Jan-17-05 | | Minor Piece Activity: Good luck with 18...Nf5. I took a long look at the board with it, checked out a lot of the variations and black seems to be struggling to draw. <mdz> I'm getting behind in work so I probably won't analyze this anymore, but I think the lines you gave are very good. You have to realize though that they don't necessarily prove black is lost. We could be missing a resource in one of the many, many lines. After all, you noted that in your line with 19. Ne4! that "W wins (though with some effort and 32 moves later" ;) Good luck to you and patzer2 in analyzing this game. |
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| Jan-17-05 | | Minor Piece Activity: One last note, 19. Ne4! Ng7 looked to be an interesting defense but I could not investigate it enough depth. |
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| Jan-17-05 | | patzer2: <Mdz><Minor Piece Activity> After 11...fxg5 12.hxg5+ Kg8 13.Rh8+ Kf7! 14. Qh5+ g6 15. Qh7+ Ke8 16. Rxf8+ Kxf8 17. f4 Nxd4 18. 0-0-0 Nf5, my line with Fritz 8 initially follows your's <mdz>, but varies with 24...Ne7!? (instead of 24...Nd6?!) which seems to win for Black. The complete line goes 11...fxg5 12.hxg5+ Kg8 13.Rh8+ Kf7! 14. Qh5+ g6 15. Qh7+ Ke8 16. Rxf8+ Kxf8 17. f4 Nxd4 18. 0-0-0 Nf5 19.Ne4 Qe8 20.Nf6 Bxf6 21.gf Qf7 22.Qh8+ Qg8 23.Qh3 Ke8 24.g4 Ne7 25. fxe7 Kxe7 26. Rh1 [26. Qh4+ Kd7 27. Qg5+ b6 28. Rh1 Kc6 29. Rh6 Qf8 30. Rxg6 Qc5 31. c3 Qe3+ 32. Kc2 Qe2+ 33. Kc1 Ba6 34. Rxe6+ Kb7 35. f5 Qf1+ 36. Kd2 Rh8 37. Rh6 Bd3 38. Qe3 Rxh6 39. Qxh6 Qe2+ 40. Kc1 Qc2#] 26...Kd7 27. Qh8 Qxh8 28. Rxh8 b6 29. Rg8 Bb7 30. Rg7+ Kc6 31. Rxg6 Re8 32. f5 d4 33. f6 Kd5 34. f7 Rf8 35. Rg7 Kxe5 36. g5 Be4  and Black is winning. |
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| Jan-17-05 | | mdz: Thanks everyone, esp. <patzer2>. You're right, 24...Ne7 seems to win as surely as 24...Nd6 was loosing. Analyzing this game is a full time job :) OK, but I have an improvement that seems to win for W:
after 11...fxg5 12.hxg5+ Kg8 13.Rh8+ Kf7 14.Qh5+ g6 15.Qh7+ Ke8 16.Rxf8+ Kxf8 17. f4 Nxd4 18.0-0-0 Nf5, W continues: 19.g4 Ng7 20.Ne4 Kf7 21.Nf6 Qf8 22.Rh1 Bxf6 23.gxf6 Qg8 24.Rh6 Qxh7 25.Rxh7 Ke8 26.Rxg7 Kf8 27.Rxg6 Bd7 28.g5 and W wins. Any lines that improve for B? |
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| Jan-17-05 | | mdz: Here is another interesting try for B, but still W seems to win:
19.g4 Bxg5 20.gxf5 Bxf4+ 21.Kb1 Bxe5 22.fxg6 Qf6 23.Ne4! Qg7 24.Rf1+ Ke8 25.Qh5 dxe4 26.Rf7
Bxb2 27.Qh4! Bf6 28.Rxf6 c6 29.Rf7 Qxf7 30.ef+ and W is better in the endgame |
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| Jan-19-05 | | patzer2: <mdz> After 11...fxg5 12.hxg5+ Kg8 13.Rh8+ Kf7 14.Qh5+ g6 15.Qh7+ Ke8 16.Rxf8+ Kxf8 17. f4 Nxd4 18.0-0-0 Nf5 19.g4 Ng7 20.Ne4 Kf7 21.Nf6, I think Black can maintain a clear advantage by gaining a tempo for defense with 21...Bxf6! ( 21...Qf8?? allows the clever and subtle win you pointed out for White). Play in this line could continue 21...Bxf6! 22. gxf6 Qg8 23. Rh1 Bd7  , when it appears Black survives with a clear advantage. |
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| Jan-20-05 | | mdz: Yes, your line improves for B. What a difference one tempo makes! Yet, B is doomed in this no matter what :) Here's how: 24.Qh6 Rf8 25.Qg5 Ne8 26.Rh6 Nxf6 27.exf6 Ke8 28.Qh4 e5 29.Rh7 Be6 30.fxe5 g5 31.Qh6 Kd8 32.b3 d4 33.Kb2 Kc8 34.f7 Bxf7 35.Rg7 Qh8 36.Qxh8 Rxh8 37.Rxf7 Re8 38.Rf5 Rg8 39.c3 and W should win. It's amazing that with 2 extra pieces and plenty of time B can't seem to make any progress here. |
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| Jan-20-05 | | patzer2: <mdz> It appears Black holds with advantage following 11...fxg5 12.hxg5+ Kg8 13.Rh8+ Kf7 14.Qh5+ g6 15.Qh7+ Ke8 16.Rxf8+ Kxf8 17. f4 Nxd4 18.0-0-0 Nf5 19.g4 Ng7 20.Ne4 Kf7 21.Nf6 Bxf6! 22. gxf6 Qg8 23. Rh1 Bd7 <24. Qh6>, with 24...Bc6! 25. Qg5 Nf5 26. gxf5 gxf5 27. Qh5+ Qg6 28. Qh7+ Qxh7 29. Rxh7+ Kg8 30. Rg7+ Kf8 31. Rh7 Re8 32. Kd2 d4 (Fritz 8 assesses -1.25 @ 19 depth & 1251kN/s). P.S.: <mdz> <minor piece activity> Thanks for taking the time to analyse this complex line. It may well be that one of us or Fritz 8 has overlooked a critical move that will turn the game in White or Black's favor. In any event, I've enjoyed the exchanges and learned something in the process. |
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| Jan-20-05 | | mdz: <patzer2>, thank you too. The line you found (24...Bd7-c6 25. Qh6-g5 Ng7-f5) is the best for B so far.
Yet, if there is one thing to learn from this game it is "don't trust computer evaluations" - they don't understand :)
I say, B is too tied up to win. So, with some help from Shredder (:), here is my "answer":
after 11... f6xg5
12. h4xg5+ Kh7-g8
13. Rh1-h8+ Kg8-f7
14. Qd1-h5+ g7-g6
15. Qh5-h7+ Kf7-e8
16. Rh8xf8+ Ke8xf8
17. f2-f4 Nc6xd4
18. O-O-O Nd4-f5
19. g2-g4 Nf5-g7
20. Nc3-e4 Kf8-f7
21. Ne4-f6 Be7xf6
22. g5xf6 Qd8-g8
23. Rd1-h1 Bc8-d7
24. Qh7-h6 Bd7-c6
25. Qh6-g5 Ng7-f5
26. g4xf5 g6xf5
27. Qg5-h5+ Qg8-g6 (your line), W just plays on (dispite computer evaluation): 28. Qh5-d1 Ra8-g8
29. Qd1-d4 Kf7-e8
30. Qd4xa7 Qg6-f7
31. b2-b3 b7-b6
32. Kc1-b2 Ke8-d7
33. Qa7-a3 Kd7-c8
34. Qa3-b4 Kc8-b7
35. a2-a4 Kb7-c8
36. a4-a5 Kc8-b7
37. a5xb6 c7xb6
38. Qb4-d6 Qf7-d7
39. Rh1-g1 Qd7xd6
40. e5xd6 Rg8-d8
41. Kb2-c3 Bc6-e8
42. Kc3-d4 Rd8xd6
43. Rg1-g7+ Kb7-c8
44. Kd4-e5 Rd6-c6
45. Rg7-g8 Kc8-d7
46. Rg8-g7+ Kd7-d8
47. f6-f7 Be8xf7
48. Rg7xf7 d5-d4
49. Ke5xd4 Rc6xc2
50. Kd4-e5 Rc2-e2+
51. Ke5-d6 Kd8-c8
52. b3-b4 and it's a draw! So, can B improve? I doubt it... |
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| Jan-04-13 | | Calli: 15...Bf6 looks good for Black. No need to open the h file for White. |
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| Oct-28-15 | | TheFocus: From a simultaneous exhibition in Washington, D.C. at the Jewish Community Center on August 29, 1933. Alekhine scored +27=0-1. Two games were played blindfold. See <The Washington Post>, September 24, 1933, Second Section, pg. 9. |
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Kibitzing
sac: 10.Bxh7+