|
< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 3 OF 4 ·
Later Kibitzing> |
| Apr-14-12 | | JoergWalter: <qqdos> thanks for the Bronstein game.
When did the informant #8 come out?
Do you know something about what happened to D. Ostapenko? No games for ~30 years? |
|
| Apr-15-12 | | qqdos: <JW> informant #8 was published and I bought it in 1970. The wierd thing is that the commentary is said to be by the 9 year-old Ostapenko listed officially with other commentators such as Botvinnik, Geler, Keres, Petrosian and Velimirovic himself. Nobody at the time remarked on the fact that the world had another prodigy in the making! I think we should be told. Ostapenko awarded himself an exclam for 18.Qh5!N, crediting Gipslis vs Tal, 1967 (1/2) with 18.Bd4. Do we detect the hand of Nikitin in any of this? Oastapenko, by the way, is still playing, see e.g. http://ratings.fide.com/view_games..... Has anyone out there got a line through to him for the low-down?! |
|
| Apr-15-12 | | qqdos: <PS> what is more the infant Ostapenko was voted 3rd in the informant #8 Best Game awards behind (1) Spassky vs J Penrose, 1969; and (2) Polugaevsky vs Tal, 1969! Flor gave him 10 points; Barcza 8 points; Euwe (!?) 7 points but sadly Filip and O'Kelly nul points! Surely no other under-ten has achieved anything comparable in the history of Chess Informant. If anyone has the original game-score, I'll buy it. |
|
| Apr-15-12 | | JoergWalter: <qqdos> matters stay mysterious. we need a statement by Ostapenko or Nikitin to understand why this sensational game of a 9 year old boy did not go around the world in 1969. Is 15....dxe4 given a ? in the annotations of the game in the chess informant? Just asking as Nikitin recommended 15....Nxe4 16.Bxd5 Qa4 17.Bxa8 Nc3 18.bxc3 Be6 19.Bd4 bxc3 20.Bxc3 Rxa8 21.g6 hxg6 22.Rxg6 Qf4+ 23.Bd2 Qf3 24.Rg3 Rb8 = Nikitin. |
|
| Apr-16-12 | | qqdos: <JW> I would add a statement from Chess Informant about what checks they made to authenticate the detailed commentary they published above the name of an unknown infant. Also who was the boy's trainer (or guardian) at the time? In 1974 the Harding/Botterill/Kottnauer book on the Sozin published the game (p.48) attributing long lines of analysis to Ostapenko - some 20 ply deep - lifted from informant #8. They spell the opponent Zhartsev, while informant have Jarcev. Who and where was (is) he? Time for some fessing-up all round?? Finally, there is no comment on 15...dxe4; Osta (or his ghost! - how about Ghostapenko's Immortal as a new label for the game?) goes straight to 18.Qh5!N. |
|
Apr-16-12
 | | LIFE Master AJ: I think you guys have your info all wrong ... no way that this game was played by a 10-year old. I do remember copying this game - by hand - out of a magazine. I have seen many different spellings for both players, especially Black. (Jarcev, Kharchiev, Yartsev, etc.) And before I raised the point, most of you seemed blissfully unaware of any of the aspects of this game. BTW, my wepage on this game - I gave the link earlier on this page - predates this game even being posted on this website ... |
|
Apr-16-12
| | LIFE Master AJ: Very little is known about either player ... |
|
| Apr-16-12 | | qqdos: Dmitry Ostapenko was born in 1960 (2 sources) and this game was published in 1969 (or 1970 at the latest). On your say-so I will accept that this game (if it is a game and not a concoction) was not played by a 9- or 10-year old. I have known this game since it appeared in 1970 in Chess Informant #8. Nowadays Ostapenko plays occasionally and you can see his picture at the link I gave above. |
|
| Apr-16-12 | | JoergWalter: <qqdos> please, don't get <LMAJ> involved. it is pretty useless. |
|
| Apr-16-12 | | qqdos: <JW> Have a look at my entry on the Pavel Yartsev (born 1964) page. I don't think he participated in this game as a 5-year-old! I would just like the mystery resolved - and pdq! |
|
| Apr-16-12 | | JoergWalter: <qqdos> I would like to have it resolved, too. At the moment I have only 3 remarks: it was not april 1st 1969 when this game was played, as chess informant #8 covers the last 6 month of 1969. Nikitin must have been coaching Ostapenko at that time. analysis from Nikitin and Ostapenko on the Velimirovic attack are cited in Pachman's modern theory III which served me as a reliable source since 1986. a 5-year-old boy and a 9-year-old boy playing such a game would have received much greater publicity especially in 1969 with Fischer around. |
|
Apr-16-12
| | LIFE Master AJ: Some would have us believe that this game was played by a 9-10 year-old ... and a five-year old? How whacked is that?
Get real! If "common sense," (and logic!) means anything, you have to realize that this is just silly ... and look for an alternate explanation. However, I am beginning to grasp why some felt this game was a hoax. (That would be more believable than a game played between two toddlers.) Also - IF this game had been played between two juniors ... would it not be almost guaranteed that it would have become one of the most celebrated games ... ever played??? (And - within a year - it would have been a world-wide media sensation?) |
|
Apr-16-12
| | LIFE Master AJ: The historian Winter could probably get to the bottom of this mystery ... |
|
| Apr-17-12 | | waustad: Whatever the story is about the players, it is a great king hunt. |
|
Apr-17-12
| | LIFE Master AJ: Absolutely! |
|
| Apr-17-12 | | qqdos: The point is that this game has been mis-attributed and the moderator of CG.com should take note. Nobody believes that a couple of schoolboys (unaided) produced this king hunt. My hunch is that it is a genuine game (not concocted) played in 1969 in the USSR but the players were not those shown above. We can dispose of Black quite simply: he was certainly not Pavel Yartsev now of Israel and born in 1964, but Jarcev (no initial - born when?) as spelt in Chess Informant #8. White is a different matter. He was an Ostapenko (no initial) but not DMITRY Ostapenko, possibly a relative of Dmitry (perhaps Dad or Uncle) and of an earlier generation. He was mature enough to provide complex variations which were widely quoted. So the task is simple - find a talented chess player of that name who was in his prime in 1969/70 somewhere in the Soviet Union. No problem then! |
|
Apr-17-12
| | LIFE Master AJ: This game was published in both the Informant ... and in several books. I don't think the admins of this site are going to drop it ... just because we cannot find the records, many years later. I can show you literally hundreds of games from the Informant where one player played perhaps a super-brilliant game, but yet never became a well-known, "big time" GM. (I even have a web page to this effect. http://www.angelfire.com/games3/lif....) To demand that the admins change it or pull it is ludricrous ... and I pray that this never happens. |
|
Apr-17-12
| | LIFE Master AJ: Something else to think about ... the first 14-15 moves were all "known theory," even as early as the late 1950's ... |
|
| Apr-17-12 | | qqdos: The game should be correctly attributed and the actual Ostapenko found and given due credit! According to 365Chess.com there is another Ostapenko, Alexander from the Russian Federation ELO 2237 born 1962, perhaps the brother of Dmitry, also from the RF but given an ELO of 2260. Where on earth did CG.com get their ELO ratings from? - 2565 for Dmitry?? and 2350?? for Pavel Yartsev, who unjustly has the millstone of this spectacular loss hanging around his neck. That cannot be condoned. The true Ostapenko (possibly father of Dmitry and Alexander) clearly knew the theory and the recent game I cited. If Dmitry did actually play this game, then you cannot escape the fact that he was aged 9 at the time and beat a child of 5. Until the actual participants have been identified, how about re-titling the game Ostapenko (?) vs NN, 1969 Russian Federation? |
|
Apr-17-12
| | LIFE Master AJ: <<Apr-17-12 qqdos: The point is that this game has been mis-attributed and the moderator of CG.com should take note.>> All your mistaken assumptions.
The only thing I see - that is probably incorrect - is the birth date for Ostapenko. (That might be the son, but not the Dad.) I am sure what happened- when this game was submitted - is that they went looking for Internet records for this player. (They probably got the wrong one.) |
|
Apr-17-12
| | LIFE Master AJ: BTW, my web page, (http://www.angelfire.com/games3/lif...); contains a very detailed analysis of this game. The bibliography also quotes three books - none of them are the Informant. |
|
| Apr-17-12 | | JoergWalter: <LMAJ> pretending to know something about the players or just copying from other authors again? <Dmitry Ostapenko was a very strong player, probably at least IM strength. (He played
in at least one Soviet Championships Semi-Finals.) He played several beautiful games
of chess. He wrote articles for chess magazines, and probably played postal chess, but
not much else is known about this player. (A search of my database shows that he
played in the Soviet Semi-Finals as recently as 1998.) Pavel Yartsev was not as strong as his opponent, but may not have been allowed to play
as much ... as he was Jewish. He later immigrated to Israel, where he lives today.> Where did you pull this out, <LMAJ>? |
|
| Apr-17-12 | | qqdos: What was the event in 1969 in which this game was played? And what were the first names of the respective players? "Verify" those details and then let us see whether this game has been mis-attributed. <JW> thnx for the quotes! |
|
| Apr-17-12 | | cro777: Yakov Damsky in his book about chess aesthetics (in Russian) commented on the game Ostapenko - Yartsev (Остапенко — Ярцев). He said that they were not even masters. For him the game is an example that "ordinary" players in an "ordinary" tournament (one of thousand similar tournaments) can sometimes create a chess masterpiece. There are no data about Yartsev's first name and his opponent was Alexander (and not Dmitry) Ostapenko. |
|
| Apr-18-12 | | qqdos: thnx. With the amendment I have suggested on the Yartsev page, we can have a simple (hope bureaucracy won't intervene) correction with justice seen to be done all round and without expunging this grand game from chess history! I suppose new pages will be needed for Alexander Ostapenko's 1960-70's games and for Dmitry's more recent game(s). That leaves the nagging question of <JW's> (to whom many thnx also) possible hoax theory on which I am agnostic now that we can eliminate schoolboy accomplices. Alexander is entitled to all the plaudits! |
|
 |
|
|
< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 3 OF 4 ·
Later Kibitzing> |
Kibitzing
Annotations by 
sac: 19.Rxg7+
