| de Riviere - Journoud (1859) |
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Paris, France (October-November 1859)
1 1 1 1 1 1
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 Wins
———————————————————————————————————————————————
de Riviere 0 0 ½ 1 1 1 1 ½ 1 0 1 1 1 0 1 9
Journoud 1 1 ½ 0 0 0 0 ½ 0 1 0 0 0 1 0* 4
———————————————————————————————————————————————
* Journoud resigned the game and the match.
Format: First to eleven wins to be the victor, draws not counting.
Stakes: 4000 francs (2000 francs each).
Venue: Café de la Régence.
"The match between M. De Riviere and Mr. Journoud, which is now exciting considerable interest in the Parisian chess circles, is appointed to commence immediately." (1) "Chess in France.—A match is on the eve of taking place between two of the most distinguished French Amateurs, the combatants in this instance being Mons. A. de Riviere and Mons. Journaud [sic]. This match will, no doubt, create much excitement in chess-playing circles, owing to the well-known talent of both amateurs about to engage in the contest. 2,000 francs have already been advanced in behalf of Mons. de Riviere. It is scarcely necessary to say that the games produced in these encounters cannot fail to possess the highest interest, and we hope to record the progress of the match, and lay before our readers at least a portion of the games so played." (2) "Through the courtesy of the combatants we are enabled thus early to present the opening games of this interesting contest, which began towards the end of last month, and will be continued daily until one player wins eight [sic] games. [...] Since the above were in type we have received two more of the games, one of which was won by M. de Rivière, and the other drawn, the score standing:—Journoud 2; De Rivière 1; Drawn 1." (3) "Match between M. de Rivière and M. Journoud.—This seems likely to prove a hard-fought contest. At present M. de Rivière scores 3, M. Journoud 2, and 1 drawn game." (4) "This match, somewhat to the disappointment of the Café de la Régence habitues, has terminated abruptly, upon the conclusion of the fifteenth game the score then standing:—De Rivère 9; Journoud 4; Drawn 2." (5) Game Sequence
1: de Riviere vs P Journoud, 1859 0-1
2: P Journoud vs de Riviere, 1859 1-0
3: de Riviere vs P Journoud, 1859 ½-½
4: P Journoud vs de Riviere, 1859 0-1
5: de Riviere vs P Journoud, 1859 1-0
6: P Journoud vs de Riviere, 1859 0-1 (game not preserved) (6)
7: de Riviere vs P Journoud, 1859 1-0
8: P Journoud vs de Riviere, 1859 ½-½
9: de Riviere vs P Journoud, 1859 1-0
10: P Journoud vs de Riviere, 1859 1-0
11: de Riviere vs P Journoud, 1859 1-0
12: P Journoud vs de Riviere, 1859 0-1
13: de Riviere vs P Journoud, 1859 1-0
14: P Journoud vs de Riviere, 1859 1-0
15: de Riviere vs P Journoud, 1859 1-0
Sources
(1) Illustrated London News, 1859.10.29, p428
(2) London Era, 1859.10.30, p14
(3) Illustrated London News, 1859.11.05, p452
(4) London Field, 1859.11.05, p380
(5) Illustrated London News, 1859.11.26, p513
(6) Illustrated London News, 1859.12.10, p561
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< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 2 OF 2 ·
Later Kibitzing> |
Mar-16-22
 | | jnpope: Each game has an unique number (although there are duplicate games sharing numbers because he had a strange way of handling consultation games). So in this case, "one" is the number of instances. About the only way to figure out the originating material is to find a source that contains a series of games that line-up with a block of games in Jay's database. I'm just hoping someone has already unearthed the source of the block of games that contain 10975. |
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Mar-16-22
 | | MissScarlett: <About the only way to figure out the originating material is to find a source that contains a series of games that line-up with a block of games in Jay's database. > So games numbered [1097x] will likely share the same or closely related source? |
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Mar-16-22
| | jnpope: That is what I would expect based on my experience so far. |
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Mar-17-22
| | MissScarlett: So what are the adjacent games? |
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| Mar-17-22 | | Z free or die: OK, if I may butt in for just a second...
For the record - Whitehead's DB used Annotator (and not Source) for the 10975 tag. A bit pedantic, but for accuracy, let's note it. And he didn't just use a straightforward number for his encoding, sometimes he decorated it, e.g. < [Annotator "11436<"] > or
< [Annotator "=00005"] > Other times, he used a date:
< [Annotator "1859.06.05"] > Or even a date and a page:
< [Annotator "1928.06.17 p.A6"] > Now, that might be enough to suggest deciphering Whitehead's code is pointless, but he seemed to add another tag for such games: < [SourceDate "2007.12.08"] > So, maybe if you had his notebook detailing his activities on 2007.12.08 you might have a chance at determining his source. But the more I look at it, the less I expect out of it (though I have asked in hope once or twice in the past). Still, if others want to try to plumb the unfathomable, kwabc provides the raw data: https://www.kwabc.org/en/jay-whiteh...
. |
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| Mar-17-22 | | Z free or die: Oh, and to be accurate - Whitehead did use the Source tag a few times: < [Source "Chessbase"] >
< [Source "gamebitchess.com"] >
< [Source "Chess Today"] >
< [Source "ChessCafe/DB"] >
Plus a couple of one timers - <Pickard & Son> and <CFC> |
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| Mar-17-22 | | Z free or die: (CFC = Chess Federation of Canada ... ?
Pickard & Son = ChessCentral ... ?) |
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Mar-17-22
| | jnpope: <For the record - Whitehead's DB used Annotator (and not Source) for the 10975 tag. A bit pedantic, but for accuracy, let's note it.> Correct. I converted the PGN tags from Annotator to Source before importing them into SCID. There is no "Source" field in ChessBase so Jay used Annotator. |
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Mar-17-22
| | jnpope: <MissScarlett: So what are the adjacent games?> Sequentially, the three games prior are given as being played in Richmond, VA (USA). Only one player is fully identified, Robert G. Morris, all three games are given as 1859. The three succeeding games are Bird vs Harrwitz (London, 1859), Tisdall vs Roberts (Brooklyn, 1858) - given as BS; Balaguer vs Mathiessen (Charleston, 1859). So it is unclear if the source material was a southern newspaper or a periodical that contained a lot of games played in the American south, or Jay may have been into a short-run/one-off section of material with the three Richmond, VA games coming from one source, the two European games from another source, and the Brooklyn/Charleston games coming from a third (and possibly fourth) source. About the only thing that seems relatively certain is that he was digging through material for 1858-1859. So perhaps a scrapbook of newspaper chess column clippings. |
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Mar-17-22
| | MissScarlett: <Now, that might be enough to suggest deciphering Whitehead's code is pointless> But what code is there? It just seems to be a random assortment of sources. It's not quite Bletchley Park. |
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Mar-17-22
| | MissScarlett: <Game Sequence> A helpful innovation when the lack of game dates hinders/prevents chronological sequencing, but how about providing the sources, too? That could even provide a clue to the missing source. |
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| Mar-17-22 | | Z free or die: <There is no "Source" field in ChessBase so Jay used Annotator.> No Source yet there is a SourceDate tag?
A tad confusing.
Speaking of confusing - how many games does <CG> have that are sourced to Whitehead? . |
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Mar-17-22
| | jnpope: <No Source yet there is a SourceDate tag? A tad confusing. >
Not really.
I'm not sure how many different versions of software "touched" the data before it became a PGN file. Originally Jay's database was a CBF file. I know this for a fact as I was the one who started doing the data entry for Jay using ChessBase 3.0, and I can attest that Jay wasn't very good about documenting sources when I met him. He just had stacks of photocopies of pages from chess periodicals. I think everything I entered was from German periodicals. Occasionally I could figure out a title or year/date from a page header, but other than those scant tidbits it was just what was on a photocopied page. When I got done I mailed back all his photocopies and the CBF database on a floppy disc. Obviously he stayed with ChessBase over the years and moved the data into the CBV format (post-ChessBase 6?). It looks like he started to harvest games from online sources in later years, so I suspect those tags came from whatever source he took the game from and those were imported into that later version of ChessBase that supported (i.e. kept) those tags upon import. |
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Mar-17-22
| | jnpope: <MissScarlett: <Game Sequence> A helpful innovation when the lack of game dates hinders/prevents chronological sequencing, but how about providing the sources, too? That could even provide a clue to the missing source.> I'm not sure about providing a clue to the missing source, but at the very least it would exclude specific dates that have already been checked from those sources. I still haven't done a full inventory check of the games here at <CG> to compare against sources that printed games from the match so I can build Source tags for <JFQ> to add to the games. But if/when I get around to that I could/should add footnote numbers to each game link indicating which sources printed a version of the game. |
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Mar-17-22
| | MissScarlett: Let's face it, the site needs more European-language posters (for my part, I deny that Britain is part of Europe). Even Russians welcomed! |
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Mar-17-22
| | jnpope: <MissScarlett: for my part, I deny that Britain is part of Europe> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W8q... |
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| Mar-17-22 | | Z free or die: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aWg... |
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Mar-17-22
| | MissScarlett: <Bird vs Harrwitz (London, 1859)> This one? Bird vs Harrwitz, 1859 |
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Mar-18-22
| | jnpope: Nope. This one.
[Event "London"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "1859.??.??"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Bird, Henry Edward"]
[Black "Harrwitz, Daniel"]
[Result "0-1"]
[ECO "C62"]
[Annotator "10976"]
[PlyCount "56"]
[EventDate "1859.??.??"]
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 exd4 4.Qxd4 Nc6 5.Bb5 Bd7 6.Bxc6 Bxc6 7.Nc3 Nf6 8.Be3 Be7 9.h3 O-O 10.O-O-O Nd7 11.Qd2 Bf6 12.Nd4 Ne5 13.f4 Nc4 14.Qd3 Nxe3 15.Qxe3 Qe7 16.g4 g6 17.g5 Bg7 18.h4 f5 19.h5 Bxe4 20.hxg6 hxg6 21.Rh4 Rfe8 22.Re1 c5 23.Ndb5 a6 24.Nxe4 axb5 25.Qb3+ c4 26.Qxb5 fxe4 27.Reh1 Rxa2 28.Qxc4+ Qe6 0-1 |
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| Mar-19-22 | | Jean Defuse: ...
<jnpope: Nope. This one.> And Black wins. Source: Era, 17 July 1859 ... |
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| Mar-19-22 | | Z free or die: <<JD> And Black wins.> A man after my own heart! |
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Mar-19-22
| | jnpope: As <Jean Defuse> points out, the Bird game can be found in the Era, but there is no sign of the Journoud-de Riviere game, so I don't think the Era is the source. |
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Nov-15-24
| | jnpope: de Riviere - Journoud (1859) (kibitz #1) I found a source, but it is five years after the match was played, so there is still a question as to why Jay dated it to 1859.
The game can be found in <Hazeltine Scrapbook>, v71, pdf p107 (Forney's War Press, 1864.11.16). Under the heading of "Chess in France" the column gives "A brilliant off-hand partie between Mm. Journond (sic) and D Riviere (sic)." None of the other games starting with 1097x appear to be from that newspaper, so Jay probably had found a different source which may have indicated a date.
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| Nov-16-24 | | WilhelmThe2nd: <j> All I could find is this: https://www.google.com/books/editio... |
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Nov-16-24
| | jnpope: <WilhelmThe2nd>
Better than I could do over the past two years (at least until I found the column clipping). I'd still like to find the originating source which must be a column that Journoud or de Riviere either ran or one in which they contributed material. |
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< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 2 OF 2 ·
Later Kibitzing> |
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