< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 44 OF 44 ·
|May-14-13|| ||joeyj: To date, GM Ruslan Ponomariov has these additional records to wit:|
A. 8th Youngest GM in history @ age 14yrs & 17 days
B. 4th Youngest to breached the 2600 barrier @ age 15yrs-2mos-21days
C. 6th Youngest to breached the 2700 barrier @ age 18yrs-2mos-21days
See <World’s Youngest To Attain GM, 2600, 2700, 2800 and WC (1st Update)>
|May-14-13|| ||dx9293: <joeyj> Well, Ponomariov is also the youngest World Champion in history, by about FOUR YEARS. Though he was not an undisputed champion, his achievement deserves serious recognition.|
|May-14-13|| ||dx9293: I think this record will be harder to break than Karjakin's youngest GM mark or Carlsen's youngest-to-2800 mark. Honestly, I think Ponomariov's record may never be broken.|
|May-14-13|| ||nok: Sure, but he was speaking about the <additional> records.|
|May-14-13|| ||dx9293: Yes, <nok> but the link does not acknowledge Ruslan's WC achievement.|
|May-14-13|| ||Just Another Master: There a 12 people who consider him WC, and 11 of them are his family. Yeah he was better than Kaspy LOL , he would have lost 10-2 in a match....oh and my friend who was 12 at the time won the Ultimate World Chess Championship in 2002 so that beats his record.|
|May-14-13|| ||TheFocus: No one should be a WC until their acne clears up.|
|May-14-13|| ||TheFocus: Or able to attend a tournament without their babysitter.|
|May-15-13|| ||dx9293: <Just Another Master> I don't know what your problem is. I said Ponomariov was not an undisputed champion, but he is an official World Champion. We don't know how his match with Kasparov would have turned out and the outcome is irrelevant to my point.|
Maybe if Kasparov and FIDE were interested in actually organizing a FAIR match, we would have gotten to see the greatest of all time (Kasparov) face the leading up-and-comer of those times (which Ponomariov certainly was in 2003).
I don't know what would make you predict Kasparov would win 10-2.
Supposing a 14-game match in 2003/2004, I would predict something like 7.5-5.5 in Kasparov's favor. This match would have taken place when Ponomariov was 19 or 20 years old and probably would have raised Ruslan to new heights, maybe undisputed champion later on.
We'll never know. But to sweep Ponomariov under the rug so easily like many have done is a huge injustice in my view. Ponomariov is the most underrated player of the past 20 years. So many players get way more attention and hype, for accomplishing much less than he has.
There is so much emphasis on rating/ranking these days. How many players have reached #6 in the World at the same age as Ponomariov? I believe only three players: Kasparov, Kramnik, and Carlsen (though Kamsky was close).
|May-15-13|| ||perfidious: <Everyone: ....<Everyone> makes mistakes. I mean you're here aren't you?>|
|May-15-13|| ||perfidious: My view falls somewhere in the middle on this one: while I don't agree with the idea that Ponomariov would have lost by the sort of margin that <JAM> offers up, neither am I inclined to accept him as titleholder on a par with Kasparov, Karpov and their predecessors, while he certainly did win a world title.|
|May-15-13|| ||dx9293: <perfidious> I never said Ponomariov's title was on a par with Kasparov's and Karpov's titles (which were undisputed), but it certainly had meaning. This idea that the FIDE World Championships meant NOTHING is naive and ridiculous, and not in line with how things were in those times.|
|May-15-13|| ||alexmagnus: Actually, recent results show that KO winners are must stronger than their ratings suggest. Gelfand gave a hard time to Anand. Svidler, while not winning the Candidates, was actually the one with the biggest overperformance in that event. Remains to see how then women Ushenina-Hou match will go, but I predict it will be <not> the one-sided affair the ratings suggest.|
|May-15-13|| ||perfidious: <dx9293: .....I never said Ponomariov's title was on a par with Kasparov's and Karpov's titles (which were undisputed), but it certainly had meaning....>|
At no time did I state that you had.
<....This idea that the FIDE World Championships meant NOTHING is naive and ridiculous, and not in line with how things were in those times.>
The situation which existed then was the way it was, and I agree: by no stretch of one's imagination were those titles meaningless. At the same time, I do not acquiesce in the belief that Karpov's FIDE win over Anand was, in any way, a battle of equals; rather, it pitted one fully rested opponent vs another who was likely blown out by the time he had got to the board for the match.
Anyone who believes Ponomariov, Khalifman or Kasimdzhanov were, in any fashion, a match for the great champions who went before them has a decidedly rose-coloured view of top chess.
|May-15-13|| ||alexmagnus: Pono was #6 in the world by the time he won that FIDE championship. Khalifman played regular Candidates before the title split. As for Kasim - well, most top players didn't play in that event (mainly due to the organizers' boycott of Jewish players).|
|May-29-13|| ||lorker: It just seems very unfair to toss Ponomariov in with Khalifman and Kasimdzhanov when making a comparison. They were much lower in ranking than him, and also not as young or on as fast a track to the top of the ratings. I think when looking at past FIDE champions it would make just as much sense to compare Ponomariov to Anand than to compare him to Khalifman or Kasimdzhanov. Furthermore, Ponomariov's consistently strong knockout performances show that his result was no fluke. He has also had many tournament successes (including 2nd at Linares at 18, just months after winning the FIDE title), and he has proven he can score against anyone (including some big wins against Kramnik). Unfortunately, ever since his World Championship match with Kasparov failed to take place his results have been somewhat inconsistent, but his talent has nevertheless been very clear, and he clearly is extremely strong and rather underrated. He has a very good opening knowledge, a lot of heart, a good tactical as well as positional vision, and is one of the best endgame players in the world. I do not know why so many people forget Ponomariov or dismiss him, as he is clearly far more talented and far stronger than many overhyped and overrated players currently out there. Ponomariov deserves a lot of credit for his chess ability (as well as appearing to be a very likeable person), and he also deserves credit for his World Championship win. It may be true that he was not Kasparov's strength at the time, but he never made any such claims. All he did was compete in the official World Championship (which had most of the top players of the time) and win it at the age of 18, which would be a tremendous achievement for anyone (consider than Anand did not make it to the finals in the same event.) Sure, he was an undisputed World Champion, but the title counts for a lot.|
|May-29-13|| ||dx9293: <lorker> Preach!|
|May-29-13|| ||dx9293: I just thought of something: I wonder how much more popularity Ponomariov would have gained if Chessgames.com, Chess.com, Chessvibes.com, and other popular websites were in existence during his rise in 2000-2001. Even the ChessBase.com site was in its infancy then.|
By the time all these sites gained steam, other stars jumped into the spotlight, especially Aronian, Carlsen, and Nakamura (who rose a couple of years later than Radjabov despite being the same age).
|May-29-13|| ||dx9293: And Ponomariov of course is a full year younger than Aronian! Something most people forget...|
|May-29-13|| ||norami: <lorker> Who are the "overhyped and overrated players" you referred to in your last post?|
|May-29-13|| ||perfidious: <dx9293: And Ponomariov of course is a full year younger than Aronian!>|
Aronian clearly matured later than did Pono, so what, exactly, is your point? That Pono has had a superior career because he won the FIDE title and Aronian did not? I'll put Aronian's record up against any player of recent years, this side of Carlsen.
By the way, Radjabov is just about nine months older than Nakamura-since you want to split hairs. You want to keep going, I'll run you ragged as you attempt to 'prove' that your hero Ponomariov is the greatest thing since sliced bread.
|May-29-13|| ||dx9293: <perfidious>
My point in bringing up the age difference between Ruslan and Levon is that Aronian is (rightfully) seen as a possible World Champion in the future, while many people would have you believe that Ponomariov is over the hill. Circa 1997 or 1998, Bacrot was considered more promising than either of them!
Radjabov was at one point the youngest GM in the world and was playing supertournaments at 15, while his 1987 twin Nakamura was toiling away in American swisses.
Look at someone like Gelfand whose best days were supposed to be over before the new millennium.
You just never know with these things.
I'm not saying Ponomariov has had a superior career to Aronian (though it is closer than appears at first sight).
I also never said Ponomariov is my hero (I don't believe in heroes), and I never said he is the greatest thing since sliced bread. What is your problem?
If you want to "run me ragged," I'm not going anywhere...
|May-29-13|| ||lorker: <norami> One example of an overrated player could be Radjabov although he might only be temporarily overrated for now. There are also many players who in the past have very quickly gained a lot of rating points and reached a high ranking, only to fall back down and disappear from the top level (e.g. Jakovenko, Movsesian, to name a few). Unlike those people, Ponomariov has stayed around and constantly proves himself as worthy of being able to play amongst the best.|
<perfidious> Saying Ponomariov is the greatest thing since sliced bread is ridiculous, as obviously he is not the strongest player in the world right now. However, I'd say he is clearly amongst the strongest people around right now (although I would say he falls short of Carlsen, Anand, Aronian, and Kramnik but probably no one else), and in terms of talent there is still much more for him to achieve. Clearly issues in his past got in the way of his success, but nevertheless he still has had an amazing career which I am sure will continue for a lot longer. I do hope he can realize his true potential in the future. Either way, I think that the point <dx9293> is trying to make is just that Ponomariov deserves a lot more respect and credit; hardly anyone ever remembers or mentions him, hardly anyone knows much about him and he has a ridiculously small fan base for such a strong player. Indeed, many people seem to think of him as being much weaker than he actually is, and tend not to give him credit, which has never made any sense to me.
|Jun-08-13|| ||The Rocket: Ponomariov - Perhaps the greatest positional player of his generation(Carlsen is more alround kind of guy). This man is a brilliant when he is good and in the right mood. Plays many stupid games at times as well.|
|Jun-16-13|| ||waustad: Beginning the Ukrainian championship 2-0 including a win against Eljanov is a very good start. He did begin with 2 whites so it will get harder in that sense.|
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