< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 63 OF 63 ·
|Oct-21-12|| ||Tiggler: <jepflast: <Tiggler> Thanks for the bug report. I don't know what went wrong.>|
I am seeing a similar problem now at node #7022.
|Oct-21-12|| ||Tiggler: More trouble at #5808.|
|Oct-21-12|| ||Tiggler: Now I see similar problems everywhere I look. I think the tree is probably OK, but the links to the main screen are mixed up somehow.|
|Oct-21-12|| ||Tiggler: <Possibly only when the option <View Tree (at this node)> is used.> Repost from game forum.|
|Oct-21-12|| ||jepflast: Okay, one thing for sure that is a bug is that if you go to a variation that does not begin at the current position (i.e. it's a branch that we already know was NOT played), the "Variation" text move numbers will be wrong.|
Most of the work on the Ceri line, which started with 17...Qf7, now falls into this category, since 17...Be7 was played. Ideally, we should copy it into the transposition that is still alive.
Even more work was "lost" via 17...Qf7 18. Nf1 Be7 19. <Ne3>.
I may be able to rescue these lines by "transplanting" the nodes with direct manipulation of the database. Stay tuned.
|Oct-22-12|| ||Tiggler: Thanks <jepflast>. I discovered this exactly while looking for not played transpositions, that might need <transplanting>. Of course, I realized not to mess with that until you had a chance to investigate.|
|Oct-22-12|| ||jepflast: <Tiggler> and <everyone>|
I made myself a little utility to "transplant" entire branches whenever we need to do it. This can only be used after a move has been played that eliminates some things by transposition.
As long as we keep all of the work in one place, we can now transplant it if necessary.
Whenever a transposition comes up, we should make sure to place a comment that says something like "***Transposition: do not post analysis here; use node xxxx instead***".
For the current situation, I transplanted node 3242 to take the place of 4899. The latter is now unattached to the Tree, but you can still see it by specifying the node number in the URL. Anything novel that was in node 4899 is now "lost", but I don't think that was very much if anything.
In the future, please notify me when a transplant is necessary; I'll have to do it myself, but it will be easy.
|Oct-22-12|| ||Tiggler: <jepflast> Thank you. I hated the idea of having to do it manually, but at least you have an efficient method now, it seems. Provided your advice is followed, however, about keeping all the work in one place. I know one critical example after move 26 where that is not the case, but maybe we will not get there.|
|Oct-23-12|| ||AylerKupp: <jepflast> The ability to transplant branches from one part of the AT to another is a worthwhile tool, although perhaps "grafting" is a technically more accurate term since it is branches that are being moved and not the entire tree. :-) |
Seriously, dealing with transposition is not an easy thing to do as I learned when I was trying to do so during my maintenance of our AT spreadsheet in other games. The main problem is that just because one position could theoretically transpose into another by a different sequence of moves, that alternate move sequence may not be either legal or make any sense. For example, sometimes the alternate move sequence may involve ignoring a check (illegal) or reaching an intermediate position that would leave a piece hanging (nonsensical). So this alternate move sequence, while it would theoretically be possible, would not (could not) happen during an actual game, and any resulting analysis associated with this move sequence would not be valid.
What I had to do whenever I detected a possible move transposition was to review the alternate move sequence to see if it made sense. Most of the time it did, but a sufficient number of times it didn't, and on several occasions there were alternate (better) moves by the opponent made possible by the different move sequence that would have invalidated the analysis. These situations were not always easy to see, and on several occasions I erroneously posted alternate but inaccurate lines.
The only practical suggestions I can make is to be conservative when transplanting branches and, unless it involves a series of forced moves by both sides, don't transplant a branch that is more than a few moves long. And always add a note at the beginning of each transplanted branch indicating this the branch is a result of a move transposition and list the original move order. That way at least whoever is following the branch is alerted to look for possible anomalies. And, if in doubt, leave the branch where it was. I felt that it would be better to lose the analysis than to introduce misleading lines into the tree that might make us vote for bad moves.
Needless to say doing this review for each transplanted branch requires time and effort. But analysis trees, like real trees, need maintenance if they are to grow and prosper. Maybe you can spread the effort by enlisting the help of whoever began the branch that is being transplanted to review the transposition move sequence for reasonableness. Good luck.
|Oct-25-12|| ||jepflast: Thanks <AylerKupp>! I owe you some conversations now that I'm done with the Team game annotation....|
|Nov-15-12|| ||tbentley: http://www.jepflast.com/chesstree/a... (transposes to 24...a6 25. Ra2 Rc8)|
I'm skeptical as to the usefulness of the following:
http://www.jepflast.com/chesstree/a... (transposes to 24...a6 25. Ra2 Bh4 26. Rf3 Bg5)
http://www.jepflast.com/chesstree/a... (transposes to 24...a6 25. Ra2 Bh4 26. Rf3 Qe8 or 25...Qe8 26. Rf3 Bh4)
http://www.jepflast.com/chesstree/a... (transposes to 24...a6 25. Ra2 Bh4 26. Rg2 Rae8)
|Nov-15-12|| ||jepflast: <tbentley> Thanks! I did the first one.|
|Nov-26-12|| ||tbentley: http://www.jepflast.com/chesstree/a... and http://www.jepflast.com/chesstree/a... transpose.|
|Dec-28-12|| ||YouRang: Again, thanks for the use of your AT. My sense is that it really helped organize our analysis. BTW, I really like the "View Tree (at this node)" feature. I use it much more frequently than the "View Tree (at last played)" link.|
If you are still considering making enhancements to the AT, I would suggest the following:
(1) Detect Transpositions
Have a mechanism in place so that whenever a new move is added, it searches the Tree to see if the ensuing position (board setup and turn to move) already exists elsewhere in the Tree.
If the position is found, the newly added move move could show (perhaps right of the "Update" button) a link to the lowest-numbered node that has the same position.
Of course, this enhancement would help us reduce redundant analysis. However, I think the benefit might go deeper than that, and reveal subtle (and sometimes surprising) things about the game that we could not detect any other way. IMO, this would be the single greatest enhancement.
(2) Delete Move feature
There have been times when I mistakenly added the wrong move (e.g. Kg8 when I meant Rg8, etc). I would like to be able to remove the mistake.
So, I would propose that if a node has no subsequent nodes or comments, then a "Delete" option be added to its status pull-down list (after "Inferior"). Selecting "Delete" and clicking "Update" would then remove that node.
I understand that it might cause a technical problems to delete, say, node 1000 after someone added node 1001 elsewhere in the Tree. If so, perhaps this "Delete" button would really just hide the move from view, but keep the node number. If by chance that hidden move is re-added later on, it could really just "unhide" that node.
(3) Reserve Tenth move
Perhaps you've already addressed this, but I recall that each position has a maximum of 10 moves that can be added. This can be a problem if 10 moves are added, and the move played isn't one of the ten.
If this is still the case, I suggest that you only allow 9 moves to be added, and only allow move #10 to be added if its status is "Played".
(4) View comments from Tree View
This may be hard/impossible, but I've often wished then when in Tree View mode, when I roll the mouse over a node with comments (indicated by gray background) that a little text window would pop-up showing the comments. It would be a great way to review the content of the Tree without having to click open each node to see the comments.
|Dec-28-12|| ||stunningmove: <jepflast> the AT was the hero of our victory! What an amazing tool! I truly enjoyed having you as a teammate and look forward to the next game.|
|Dec-28-12|| ||tbentley: <YouRang> Copied from the instructions: <If you make a mistake, it is possible to delete a node/move.
To do this, first navigate to the node you want to delete.
(I.e., if you just added the wrong move, click on it.) Then,
change the URL so that "node.php" is "delete_node.php".
Direct the browser to go to that page by pressing Enter. You
cannot delete a node that has had any moves added to it.>|
|Dec-28-12|| ||YouRang: <tbentley> Ah, thanks for the correction. The existing deletion method is sufficient (albeit non-obvious, and perhaps intentionally so). I'll remember that for next time.|
|Dec-28-12|| ||OhioChessFan: Real men don't read the instructions. That's why I didn't know about that trick either.|
|Jan-01-13|| ||stunningmove: Happy New Year <jepflast>|
We are beginning analysis of possible openings for the next WT game. It would be awesome to have the AT to store variations and allow all to look at and evaluate!!! I am clueless as to the work on your part to administer the AT or data storage issues. If it is not too difficult touch base at my forum. If it is a monster to administer I understand waiting till we have a game scheduled.
|Jan-02-13|| ||jepflast: Happy New Year, all!
<YouRang> Those are very good suggestions. During the last game I think I did figure out how to detect transpositions. When a node is added that is identical to an existing position, I was going to have the code add a comment to that node saying that it might be a transposition. Further, I could add a button to "swap" all of the continuing analysis from one of those nodes to the other. (If there's more than one identical position, well, I'm not sure what to do yet!)
Idea #4 is really cool. I'm sure it's possible, but it may not be with the technology I'm using. There would have to be a database lookup triggered by the mouse-over. I'll have to investigate this.
|Jan-05-13|| ||Tiggler: Hi <jepflast> and Happy New Year.|
I reviewed <YouRang>'s post and also like (1) and (4).
With regard to transpositions: this is clearly the thorniest issue, and the reason is that a chess analysis is actually not a tree at all but a directed graph:
A singly connected directed graph is a special case, which may be displayed as a tree. A k-connected graph is a graph in which at least k nodes must be deleted to disconnect the graph into disjoint parts. A tree has k=1, but if there are transpositions k>1. Now we run into the problem that if k>1 the graph cannot be displayed in 2 dimensions without crossing connections. Pretty significant issue.
There are work-arounds, that I think you are considering. Best wishes for success, and even without, the AT is still a great tool in practice.
|Jan-13-13|| ||cro777: <The Caissars: The 2012 Caissar for Most Constructive ... second place yet quite deserving jepflast.>|
Congratulations, <jepflast>! You deserve more than an honorable mention.
|Jan-13-13|| ||hms123: <jepflast>
<hms123>, my friend who is very constructive>
Thanks. That means a lot.
|Feb-06-13|| ||karpkasp: <jepflast> As a former member of Team White during the Thematic Challenge, I can confirm that you are very contructive. I really enjoyed this game and I have devoted almost all my free time to play it.|
Many thanks for your double (!) nomination in the Caissar Awards. This was a big surprise for me:)
Unfortunately, we couldn't win this Albin game :(
|Feb-08-13|| ||jepflast: <karpkasp: I really enjoyed this game and I have devoted almost all my free time to play it.>|
Yeah, me too. Remind me not to do that again! :)
< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 63 OF 63 ·