< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 19 OF 19 ·
|May-31-12|| ||Eyal: I know very well that 17...Nc6 is losing eventually - on p.17 I've posted myself analysis which shows that. But it requires from White some technique and accuracy which are not completely trivial, so it might have been worth while prolonging the fight with Black a bit longer. Whether Gelfand saw it or not is a matter of speculation, unless he would tell us himself. It wouldn't be so incredible if he didn't because, as I mentioned, the move is not obvious, he resigned very quickly after Anand's 17th move, and we know for a fact that two players of the top 20-30 didn't spot it immediately. And perhaps I shouldn't even bother pointing out, because anyone can see that easily, that my post has nothing to do with "patzers thinking that they see more then grandmasters", because I never said that <I> would have spotted this move immediately.|
|May-31-12|| ||jefballard: More THAN grandmasters. At least the patzer can form a sentence.|
|May-31-12|| ||Sher Khan: good game .............hihahhahah|
|May-31-12|| ||Rob Lob Law: Jefballard - "More THAN grandmasters." is not a sentence, since every sentence needs a verb. In your rush to proclaim my inability to form a sentence, you yourself did not form a sentence. Thanks for the laugh!|
Eyal - every grandmaster analysis that I have seen indicates that the position after 17 ...Nc6 is hopeless, and no special accuracy is required. Any GM or IM would have no trouble winning that position. It is incredibly insulting to Gelfand to insinuate that he did not consider such an obvious move. When your queen is trapped, you consider all possible ways to free it. You are not going to look at Nc6 and think "oh no, I cannot put my knight there because it will be taken, I am better off just losing my queen. Of course he looked at it! He is rated 2730 and was playing in the world championship! If you are too stupid to understand that, then I pity you.
|May-31-12|| ||dotsamoht: I agree with Eyal that 17...Nc6 should have been played, despite the fact that 18. dxc6 was winning.|
In World Championship play, the mood often matters more than the actual position. 17...Nc6 would have shifted the mood from "Wow, the queen is trapped!" to "Oh... she escapes after all... hmmm..."
Would Anand have gone on to win that game? Definitely. But such a resilient move as 17...Nc6 would have set the tone for future contests and might have led to a Gelfand victory in his subsequent Whites, an eventuality that did not transpire after 17... Resigns.
As Korchnoi put it, in chess one must present unremitting resistance to one's opponent. I suggest 17...Nc6 would have shown such resistance.
Did Gelfand consider 17...Nc6 and reject it? I don't think so. It was not an easy move to consider. He saw his queen was trapped, felt trapped himself, and resigned.
It happens like that sometimes.
|May-31-12|| ||Eyal: <Rob Lob> Lol, I should have realized immediately you're one of those trolls who only look for opportunities to throw insults at other people and not waste time on you. Anyway, I'm sure Gelfand is thrilled you're defending his honor. A pity Leko and Nepomniachtchi didn't know about your theory that Nc6 is such an obvious move that it's impossible for a 2730 not to look at it. And come to think of it, I can honestly say that I pity you - judging by the style of your posts, you strike me as someone who overall deserves more pity than contempt.|
|May-31-12|| ||Rob Lob Law: Eyal - I thank you for all the compliments. Boris resigned out of respect of Anand. If you do not know what the word "respect" means please consult a dictionary or an Aretha Franklin song. Leko and Ian were not entirely engrossed in the game and were not looking at computer evaluations. I am sick of everyone talking about Anand and Gelfand as though they are patzers who can't see 3 or 4 moves ahead during a championship match. You are full of negativity and enjoy trying to cut successful people down to your level. I do not pity you, I pity you friends and family, if you even have any. :)|
|Jun-01-12|| ||Peligroso Patzer: <Eyal: <You don't grab that rook in the corner unless you're certain you can get the Queen out. At the WCC level it must be regarded a stone-cold blunder. For goodness' sake, White's 17th is his first non-forced move after Gelfand sacs his Nh4. Hard to fathom.>
Of course it's a terrible blunder, but it's not <that> hard to fathom. Clearly, when Gelfand played 14...Qf6 he *assumed* that White has to defend against the threat on f3 *** >|
Well, to play a move after a player's thought process has gone as far as "he's got to defend the threat on f3", and no further is the level of depth one might expect to encounter in five-minute chess (forgive the oxymoron) played in a coffeehouse, not at the WCC.
|Jun-01-12|| ||Eyal: <Well, to play a move after a player's thought process has gone as far as "he's got to defend the threat on f3", and no further is the level of depth one might expect to encounter in five-minute chess (forgive the oxymoron) played in a coffeehouse, not at the WCC.>|
Actually, that wasn't an accurate way to describe this thought process – because, as I mentioned in the next post, Gelfand said in the press conference that he did consider the possibility of 15.gxh5, but concluded he was going to be ok after the sequence leading to the rook capture and 17.Qf4 (which was also Anand's first idea); he missed Qf2. And of course, in general there's no denying that it's a very very bad blunder for WCC level. My main point was that it's not <that> elementary or inexplicable as presented in the post I was responding to. It's true that White's 17th is his first non-forced move after the knight on h5 is captured, but the blunder didn't start for Gelfand on move 14 or 15 – from his perspective, it was a hole in one of the sidelines that he was apparently already calculating on move 11 or 12.
|Jun-01-12|| ||Peligroso Patzer: Thanks for the clarification, <Eyal>. My previous comment was posted rather hurriedly just before running out the door for work in the morning, and without having read everything you had already posted in this thread. My “time pressure” earlier today was exacerbated by the fact that my computer, which normally does processing at a chelonian rate, earlier this morning could manage no better than an escargotian pace.|
Thanks also, <Eyal>, for mentioning in one of your posts that Gelfand resigned quickly after <17. Qf2>. (I did not have the opportunity to follow this game in real time.) I had guessed that the shock of discovering his Queen had no safe way out from the corner had probably led Gelfand to resign precipitously, and probably without noticing that by sacrificing his Knight (17. … Nc6!?), it still would have been possible to save the Queen. The confirmation you provided that Gelfand did, indeed, resign quickly seems to confirm this speculation. Black, of course (as you and others have previously commented) would have been objectively quite lost even after <17. … Nc6>, but it probably was worth trying, and if Gelfand had considered that move, it certainly would have justified taking a significant amount of time before resigning.
|Jun-01-12|| ||Eyal: <PP> Btw, if you - or anybody else - wants to follow the events as they unfolded in the final stage of the game, with Leko and Nepomniatchi being rather clueless about what's going on and experiencing the shock together with Gelfand, it's on http://moscow2012.fide.com/en/vid-a..., from about 16:41:00 to 16:54:00. Both dramatic and educational... also, the exact time that passes from the moment Anand plays 17.Qf2 to Gelfand's resignation is 3 minutes.|
|Jun-04-12|| ||voyager39: <DanielBryant> <I think this is unworthy of GOTD status> I can bet my last penny that you're the typical computer crippled patzer who has no clue what's actually going on. |
This was a brilliant and historic game.
|Jun-09-12|| ||King.Arthur.Brazil: Comming back to Chessgames in 2012, I fill (badly) surprised for this kind of game! I really don't believe in a 17 moves game with some mis-prepared oppening trap. Tell me, where are the computers? Are they fooling me? Fistly, I don't understand that in a prepared line (homework) didn't GELFAND see the answer 12.g4 for his Bxf5? So, in his study the "best" 14...Qf6(?) lose by 17.Qf2... And didn't he see it at home before? Could he tried a little step more? Why didn't he played 17...Nc6? If lost, try something first. If 18.dxc6 Qxc6, and black has fight. But, if 18.Be2? Nd4+ treating 19...Rxe2+ followed by 20...Qxb1 and 21...Nxe2. Also, if 18.Bd3 Nb5+, now 19.Kd2, Nxd3, 20.Kxd3, Qxb1 and black has 2R x N+Q,lost but with fight... Back to the point: this "black prepared trap" is an absurd for a WCC game... He trow out his yesterday victory (point) in such a easy way, that seemd to me like a child playing. Sorry, but it is ridiculous...|
|Jun-09-12|| ||LIFE Master AJ: My web page on this game - link below.
(I have not done the video yet.)
|Jun-30-12|| ||reisanibal: I set the last position up on computer (Chessmaster 9000). Both sides were CM9000. And black went on to winning this game :S Maybe, Gelfand resigned too early. Material count is not that bad.|
|Jul-29-12|| ||kappertjes: <reisanibal> An interesting experiment indeed. Now CM9000 is not the best engine in town, but still intriguing. |
I am convinced that anyone who says that 'it is obvious' that Qf6 was not the move is just an engine junkie. I was watching the game and it was not super simple, it was not obvious. Gelfand missed it, as did the super GMs commenting. Not only are there patzers, patzers everywhere, they talk trash about the best players in world. brr...
|Aug-13-12|| ||vikram2791: I analyzed the game: After Gelfand plays something like 17...Nd7( not saving the queen) 18.Be3, Gelfand can play ...Qxb1 19.Kxb1 because 2 rooks are equal to a queen. I think Gelfand was in shock or something, because he resigned too early. Anyway, I'm glad Anand won.|
|Aug-13-12|| ||Eyal: <vikram2791: I analyzed the game: After Gelfand plays something like 17...Nd7( not saving the queen) 18.Be3, Gelfand can play ...Qxb1 19.Kxb1 because 2 rooks are equal to a queen.>|
Count the pieces again - White has an extra bishop; that's completely lost for Black (and it's 18.Bd3, not Be3). As was already noted several times here, the only way for Black to put up any kind of fight instead of resigning on the spot was 17...Nc6.
|Aug-13-12|| ||vikram2791: To eyal,
Thanks for correcting me.
|Sep-26-12|| ||LIFE Master AJ: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AiG8...
This is my YT video on this game ... again, it is supported by a web page, that link has already been given.
|Jan-19-13|| ||voyager39: I think this 17 move record will hold till eternity...the much hyped challenger Carlsen in any case never wins anything before time trouble around move 40.|
|Feb-02-13|| ||hchrist: Gelfand played like a patzer here. What a shame.|
|Feb-23-13|| ||talisman: Indian Game/Anti Grunfeld/Alekhine Variation...is that the same as Neo-Grunfeld?|
|Mar-26-13|| ||dagwood2005: Pretty sure this is a kind of King's Indian and not a Neo-Grunfeld|
|Apr-02-13|| ||morfishine: Inexplicable...Improvements?: no comment
What not to do? Well, Nh5 is useful in many systems/variations; but on move 7? of a hybrid-Gruenfeld?; with the Q-side still undeveloped?; against Anand? LOL
< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 19 OF 19 ·