< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 6 OF 6 ·
|Jun-16-12|| ||whiteshark: tempokampf|
|Jun-16-12|| ||Patriot: I decided on 82.Bc8 but couldn't see it through. The idea is 82...Nf3?? 83.Bb7+ Kf4 84.Bxf3 Kxf3 85.Kg5 . So 82...Kf4 was the next idea followed by 83.h4. 83...Ng4+ 84.Kg7 Kg3 85.h5 Kh4 86.Bxg4 Kxg4 87.h6 .|
|Jun-16-12|| ||RookFile: A typical example of how Fischer's play seems so simple - then we try to find the same moves ourselves, and it's not so easy.|
|Jun-16-12|| ||LoveThatJoker: <RookFile> Speak for yourself! :D|
I found 82. Bc8 and the winning lines thereafter!
|Jun-16-12|| ||RookFile: <LoveThatJoker: I found 82. Bc8 and the winning lines thereafter! >|
And I already knew the answer, because it was a famous position. Point is that one of the world's top GMs thought he had a draw until Fischer showed him Bc8.
|Jun-16-12|| ||grasser: This game was played on by the now hard to find Drueke "Players Choice".
I have three of them all because of this match.|
|Jun-16-12|| ||LoveThatJoker: <Rookfile> Cool man!|
<All> Wow! Somehow it feels there weren't too many kibitzers who came to provide an answer for this one (whether they knew the answer or not) - even for a weekend puzzle.
|Jun-16-12|| ||TheBish: Fischer vs Taimanov, 1971|
White to play (82.?) "Very Difficult"
This must have been the longest game from their Candidates match, which of course Fischer won 6-0. It's vaguely familiar, but I don't remember the winning procedure -- looks like a great study position though. Candidate moves are Kg5 and Bc8. At first I liked 82. Kg5, but rejected it because after 82...Nf7+ 83. Kg6 Ne5+ 84. Kf6 Kf4 85. Bc8 Nf3 followed by 86...Kg3 and it looks like a draw. But the other one should be winning.
82. Bc8! Kf4
At first I thought Black could play 82. Nf3, but then 82...Bb7+ Kf4 83. Bxf3 Kxf3 (or 83...Kg3 84. Bg4 Kh4 85. Kg6 Kg3 86. Kg5 wins) 84. Kg5 Kg3 85. h4 and the pawn queens.
83. h4! Nf3
Or 83...Ng4+ 84. Kg7 Kg3 85. h5 and the pawn will queen, by taking the knight if necessary.
84. h5 Ng5 85. Bf5 and Black is in zugzwang.
I must be missing something; this seemed too easy!
|Nov-14-12|| ||The Last Straw: Sad how the white king and pawn defeats black's army at the end..|
|Nov-14-12|| ||shakespeare: 82.Bc8!!! I wonder how many would have played Bf5 or some natural looking move - c8 for the B seems to be the most unnatural and least active square - but if you check it with tablebases every other move leads to a draw - except Bc8|
|Nov-14-12|| ||Honza Cervenka: <shakespeare: 82.Bc8!!! I wonder how many would have played Bf5 or some natural looking move - c8 for the B seems to be the most unnatural and least active square - but if you check it with tablebases every other move leads to a draw - except Bc8>|
Well, I have no idea how many people would have played 82.Bf5 here but without any calculation it is apparently inferior to 82.Bc8 even at first glance. Why? Of course, after 82.Bf5+ Kf4 (a move which black is planning to play anyway as 81...Ke4?? clearly suggests) white must lose a tempo for freeing his King from obligation to protect Bishop attacked by black King. Thus 82.Bf5+ just wastes a tempo and it makes here the difference between win and draw. Also other moves of Bishop are easy to dismiss. It is clear that Bishop must stay on h3-b8 diagonal to keep black Knight away of d7 [for example, 82.Bd1 Nd7+ 83.Ke6 Kf4 84.h4 (84.Kxd7 Kg5 draws easily as extra Bishop is bad here) 84...Kg3 85.h5 Kf4 86.h6 Kg5 87.h7 Nf8+ and Ph7 falls] and 82.Be6 is insufficient for 82...Nf3 (after 82.Bc8 this defense is not possible for 83.Bb7+ Kf4 84.Bxf3 Kxf3 85.Kg5 ). And 82.Kg5 opens the way for black King back to critical points for the defense in endings with Rook-file Pawn and bad Bishop. 82.Bc8 is thus the only choice left if white wants to try to play this ending for win. Of course, to see that 82.Bc8 really wins by force is another matter but it is not necessary for making the right decision here.
|Nov-14-12|| ||Garech: "Bobby Fischer - greatest endgame player of all time?" Discuss.|
|Nov-14-12|| ||Tigranny: This is one of those puns like "I'm Not a Rook" that matches with the game. Here, a single knight with just the king and no pawns, loses to a superior bishop, king, and rook pawn. The pun also ties in with "Knight" as "Night", since the game is in the endgame with just five pieces left. By the way, I love games like this when the bishop wins.|
|Nov-14-12|| ||Joshka: And he wins even though he has the wrong rook pawn!|
|Nov-14-12|| ||Marmot PFL: Taimanov played well to reach a drawn position. Possibly if Fischer's technique was better he could have won this without the mistake on move 81.|
|Nov-14-12|| ||kevin86: Poor horsey! The knight was in the perfect spot,but had to move from its ideal spot.|
|Nov-14-12|| ||AylerKupp: <<sevenseaman> But aren't we handing over our thinking faculty to an engine/ready-reckoner/ or a move dictionary?>|
Much depends on what you consider "thinking" and, specifically, whether you consider memorization part of our "thinking faculty". Most people don't, reserving the use of "thinking" to (among other things) applying known principles to new situations. If we exclude memorization from our set of thinking tools, then we could not properly use memorized opening variations or endgame positions in games without also discarding our "thinking faculty".
And in this game it's just as much of a case of Taimanov missing the moves to draw (81...Nf3, 81...Kd4) than Fischer finding the move to win (82.Bc8). It's not necessarily fair to fault Taimanov since we don't know the time control situation, but by applying a little bit of "thought" Taimanov should have realized that the only way to draw was to either sacrifice his knight for Fischer's remaining pawn or to get his king to h8. Then combining both concepts by blocking the pawn's advance by 31...Nd3-f4 from where it could only be dislodged by capturing it with White's king, giving Black's king enough time to get to h8 via the dark squares, was really not that difficult to find. But given the state of the match at this point and possible time trouble, it apparently was too much for Taimanov. Not to take anything away from Fischer, he found the needed move when Taimanov didn't so he deserved to win. Perhaps this game is another validation of the saying that the winner of a chess game is the person who makes the next to last mistake.
BTW, also save the following link for future reference: http://chessok.com/?page_id=361. I think that it's somewhat easier to use than the other link to the 6-piece Nalimov tablebases and it usually provides the entire line for forced mate variations.
And I think that since in order to draw Black's knight has to play the starring role, "Starry Knight" would have been an even better game title pun.
|Nov-14-12|| ||Riverbeast: Just a relentless game.....
<And in this game it's just as much of a case of Taimanov missing the moves to draw (81...Nf3, 81...Kd4) than Fischer finding the move to win (82.Bc8)>
How do those moves draw?
|Nov-14-12|| ||SChesshevsky: <AylerKupp: And in this game it's just as much of a case of Taimanov missing the moves to draw (81...Nf3, 81...Kd4) than Fischer finding the move to win (82.Bc8).>|
When I first saw this game it did look like Black had at least a few chances to draw the endgame. But I put it toward the weird game scheduling and Taimanov being more prone to fatigue.
But I also thought you really can't fault Fischer's technique with 72. Bg4 securing the pawn, then Ra6 cutting off the King then advancing his own King to a dominant position, where Kf6 was outstanding.
|Nov-15-12|| ||AylerKupp: <Riverbeast> After 81...Nd3 82.h4 Nf4 if 83.h5 then 83...Nxh5 84.Bxh5 and White has insufficient material for a mate. The only way to get the knight off the f4 square is 83.Kf5 but then after 83...Kd6 84.Kxf5 Ke7 Black's king gets to h8 and with the bishop not controlling the queening square White can't queen the h-pawn.|
If 81...Kd4 then Black's strategy is to either distract the White king by checks to allow the Black king to get to h8 via the dark squares white the White king is chasing and capturing the knight or to force White's king to the h-file where it blocks the h-pawn from queening. A possible continuation might be: 82.Be2 (or 82.Be1) 82...Ke4 83.h4 Kf4 84.h5 Nd7+ and now
(1) 85.Ke7 Kg5 86.Kxd7 Kh6 87.Ke7 Kh7 and the Black king can't be forced away from h8.
(2) 85.Kg7 Kg5 86.h6 Nf6 87.Bd1 (or 87.Be2 if 82.Bd1) 87...Ne8+ 88.Kh7 (otherwise the h-pawn is lost) 88...Nf6+ and a draw by repetition. If instead 87.Bb5 (or 87.Ba4 if 82.Bd1) to prevent 87...Ne8+, then 87...Nh5+ 88.Kh7 (again forced in order to protect the h-pawn) 88...Nf6+ and once again draw by repetition.
Why does 81...Kd4 draw and 81...Ke4 lose? Just the position of the pieces. I'm not aware of any general principles that favor one move versus the other. It's just a matter of calculation. But maybe someone else can find a better reason.
|Nov-15-12|| ||AylerKupp: <SChesshevsky> True, I can't fault Fischer's technique towards the end of the game nor would I likely be able to do so even if it was indeed faulty. But in spite of Fischer's excellent technique around moves 70 – 80 Taimanov still had a draw at move 81 if he had been able to find it.|
|Dec-13-12|| ||PinnedPiece: GTM Score: 181 Par: 164|
|Mar-06-13|| ||Garech: Fischer's level of play in the endgame is just awesome. Carlsen is following in his footsteps!|
|Mar-11-13|| ||kevin86: Black ends up in Zugzwang,he cannot keep the knight protected,so it must be moved or lost.|
|Mar-11-13|| ||RookFile: Most of us think about the endgame, but I find the opening remarkable. Black is ahead a pawn, after all. One wrong move, one failure to exploit compensation by Fischer, and black probably wins this game, not loses it.|
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