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Oct-25-09
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| euripides: <Garech> the trick is to search for the game e.g. under 'fischer gligoric' on the home page, and then go to the game and copy the webpage adress and paste it into your kibitz. Unfortunately this gets a bit messy for multiple references in the same kibitz. I think the game you mean must be this, which I hadn't seen before - Gligoric vs Fischer, 1970 |
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Oct-25-09
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| Eyal: <euripides> Thanks. Yes, that's the game with Gligoric. The 13th game from the 1972 match doesn't really fit the type we're talking about here since - as you say - Spassky refused to accept the "sacrifice", for good reasons... what eventually took place was much more unusual, in fact - Spassky "stalemated" Fischer's rook in the corner, and it came down to five passed pawns vs. the white rook (Botvinnik, who was deeply impressed by this game, said it was the first time this thing happened in chess). And the 17th game indeed features a positional exchange sac (for a pawn) for drawing - rather than winning - purposes. Btw, the repetition occurred immediately after the adjournment, so apparently Spassky just didn't find any way to make progress, and I don't think any analysis has indicated otherwise since. Anyway - out of curiosity I went quickly over all of Fischer's Ruy Lopez wins in this database (http://www.chessgames.com/perl/ches...), and found <1 game out of 73> that fits the bill... Fischer vs R Sanguineti, 1959. There's another one with a middlegame exchange sac (Fischer vs Seidman, 1960), and two more with exchange "sacs" that are part of completely forcing short-term combinations - so not genuine sacs in the sense we're talking about here (Fischer vs Eliskases, 1960, Fischer vs Matulovic, 1970). Maybe I'll report later from the Sicilian wins... |
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| Oct-27-09 |
| Garech: <Eyal> <Anyway - out of curiosity I went quickly over all of Fischer's Ruy Lopez wins in this database , and found <1 game out of 73> that fits the bill... Fischer vs R Sanguineti, 1959. There's another one with a middlegame exchange sac (Fischer vs Seidman, 1960), and two more with exchange "sacs" that are part of completely forcing short-term combinations - so not genuine sacs in the sense we're talking about here (Fischer vs Eliskases, 1960, Fischer vs Matulovic, 1970)> How did you initiate this search? With the exhange sac explorer? This might not be 100% reliable as it will be looking at outright exchange sacs, and sometimes they can occur as the result of longer combinations and wouldn't be found with such search criteria. For example the game you gave Vs Matulovic there is in fact no point when white is the exchange down. Fischer is first a bishop down, and then a full rook. Also, there are over 100 games in the database with Fischer playing the Ruy Lopez; apparently you have checked only the closed variations. Certainly you should check the Sicilians (with Fischer as white and black) and also playing black in the KID. These are the openings I've looked at most. I'm not saying they're littered with endgames the exchange down - just that it's more common than you'd think. You seem just to want to 'win' this discussion! It really doesn't matter to me. I've seen the games and learned from them. If you don't want to believe what I say, then it's your loss! All the best,
Garech |
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Oct-27-09
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| Eyal: <Garech> Yes, I'm aware of the limitations of the sac explorer and I wasn't relying on it - as I mentioned explicitly, and as the link I provided should have made clear (unless it's unavailable to non-premium members), I was looking at all of Fischer's Ruy Lopez <wins> - there are only 73 of them out of the overall of more than 100 games (you said <it's remarkable how often he went into the endgame an exchange down correctly judging his position as still winning>, and <Just select his wins>). Anyway, I'm not trying to taunt you - the few games with such endgame-winning exchange sacs that I've found so far are indeed instructive, and if you also found the games you're talking about instructive and enjoyed them that's great. Like I said, I'm curious whether such sacrifices happened often enough to be considered a distinctive characteristic of Fischer's style, as you seemed to claim (I'd be surprised if there's any good player who never made such sacs in his career) - so I'm trying to establish how many of them there actually are. I found only 1 sac of the type we're talking about in the Ruy Lopez games - maybe there are more, as you say, in the Sicilian and KID games. Since you don't mention any more specific games besides the one vs. Gligoric, I'll probably have to go over all of them myself if I really want to find out. Right now I don't have enough time and patience to do that, but if I do and find some more I'll post them here - you might do the same yourself if you happen to remember any. |
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| Oct-29-09 |
| Garech: <Eyal: Since you don't mention any more specific games besides the one vs. Gligoric, I'll probably have to go over all of them myself if I really want to find out. Right now I don't have enough time and patience to do that, but if I do and find some more I'll post them here - you might do the same yourself if you happen to remember any.> Here's another one for you man, although this time it's really a middlegame exchange sac - but with correct play from his opponent it could have easily carried over into the endgame. All the best, Garech
Fischer vs Seidman, 1960 |
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| Oct-31-09 |
| Garech: <Eyal: Since you don't mention any more specific games besides the one vs. Gligoric, I'll probably have to go over all of them myself if I really want to find out. Right now I don't have enough time and patience to do that, but if I do and find some more I'll post them here - you might do the same yourself if you happen to remember any.> And another: E Nash vs Fischer, 1956 |
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| Nov-03-09 |
| Garech: <Eyal: Since you don't mention any more specific games besides the one vs. Gligoric, I'll probably have to go over all of them myself if I really want to find out. Right now I don't have enough time and patience to do that, but if I do and find some more I'll post them here - you might do the same yourself if you happen to remember any.> These last couple are sicilians, but still great wins: A Redolfi vs Fischer, 1959 |
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| Nov-03-09 |
| Garech: <Eyal: Since you don't mention any more specific games besides the one vs. Gligoric, I'll probably have to go over all of them myself if I really want to find out. Right now I don't have enough time and patience to do that, but if I do and find some more I'll post them here - you might do the same yourself if you happen to remember any.> This time a middlegame exchage sac; the standard Rxc3 in the sicilian although I don't think that should disqualify it for the growing collection! W Ader vs Fischer, 1959 |
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Nov-03-09
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| Eyal: <A Redolfi vs Fischer, 1959> I wouldn't say that's an example of the kind of sacrifice we're talking about - in this game it seems that Fischer blundered the exchange rather than "sacrificed" it (after missing a simple win on move 21 by ...Qxe3, btw) - he was dead lost until moves 39-40, and had a very lucky escape. I actually had a quick look at all the KID and Sicilian wins by now, so here are the remaining candidate games that I found (I still haven't gone over them in detail to see how sound Fischer's play really was): A Pomar-Salamanca vs Fischer, 1966
Minic vs Fischer, 1967
Fischer vs S Hamann, 1968
R Byrne vs Fischer, 1971 |
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| Nov-04-09 |
| Garech: <Eyal: <A Redolfi vs Fischer, 1959> I wouldn't say that's an example of the kind of sacrifice we're talking about - in this game it seems that Fischer blundered the exchange rather than "sacrificed" it (after missing a simple win on move 21 by ...Qxe3, btw) - he was dead lost until moves 39-40, and had a very lucky escape. I actually had a quick look at all the KID and Sicilian wins by now, so here are the remaining candidate games that I found (I still haven't gone over them in detail to see how sound Fischer's play really was): A Pomar-Salamanca vs Fischer, 1966
Minic vs Fischer, 1967
Fischer vs S Hamann, 1968
R Byrne vs Fischer, 1971>
I take your point that it wasn't the kind of sac we were talking about - but still, Fischer goes into the middlegame/endgame the exchange down and wins. Are you sure you did that search correctly? Cos I have just found: Fischer vs M Bertok, 1961
which should surely both qualify and be found by the sac explorer. |
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Nov-04-09
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| Eyal: <Garech> See my very first post on the subject: <Speaking of Fischer's exchange sacrifices, I can't recall so many of them. I can think of the Rxh5 sacs in Fischer vs Larsen, 1958 and Fischer vs Gligoric, 1959 (though in those cases the resulting attack is so immediate and forcing that it's more part of a combination than a "genuine" long-term sacrifice); the nice 14.Rxe4 in Fischer vs Najdorf, 1962, shattering Black's center and opening lines against his king; <and Fischer vs M Bertok, 1961, where - like in this game - a powerful bishop pair + pawn majority on the Q-side is correctly judged as more valuable than an exchange.>> That's why, in my last post, I said "the remaining" games, meaning those that haven't been mentioned so far... |
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| Nov-04-09 |
| ewan14: Fischer v Smyslov 1959
Fischer v Korchnoi 1967
Could these games be included ? |
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Nov-04-09
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| Eyal: <ewan14> If you include drawing, as well winning, sacs (like the 17th game from 1972 match, mentioned earlier by <euripides>); in the game from 1959 Fischer is Black, btw - Smyslov vs Fischer, 1959. |
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| Nov-04-09 |
| Garech: <Eyal: <Garech> See my very first post on the subject: <Speaking of Fischer's exchange sacrifices, I can't recall so many of them. I can think of the Rxh5 sacs in Fischer vs Larsen, 1958 and Fischer vs Gligoric, 1959 (though in those cases the resulting attack is so immediate and forcing that it's more part of a combination than a "genuine" long-term sacrifice); the nice 14.Rxe4 in Fischer vs Najdorf, 1962, shattering Black's center and opening lines against his king; <and Fischer vs M Bertok, 1961, where - like in this game - a powerful bishop pair + pawn majority on the Q-side is correctly judged as more valuable than an exchange.>> That's why, in my last post, I said "the remaining" games, meaning those that haven't been mentioned so far...> Ok sure thing. Hey - I had an idea - seeing as we have all gone to so much effort to find these games (I'm still going thru them all myself) how about we make a collection of games under the title of "Fischer's greatest exchange sacs" or something like that? Do you have to be a premium member to make these collections? If not then I'll do it, but I think you have to be. |
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| Nov-07-09 |
| Garech: <Eyal: Since you don't mention any more specific games besides the one vs. Gligoric, I'll probably have to go over all of them myself if I really want to find out. Right now I don't have enough time and patience to do that, but if I do and find some more I'll post them here - you might do the same yourself if you happen to remember any.> This one from a simul, but should still count for the collection: Fischer vs T Hartwell, 1964 |
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| Nov-07-09 |
| Garech: This is a great one in a sicilian, Rxc3 but with white castled kingside: R Reyes vs Fischer, 1967 |
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Nov-07-09
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| Eyal: <Garech: Fischer vs T Hartwell, 1964> I noticed this game (actually already a while ago, when I was going over all of Fischer's games against the Dragon), but didn't include it for the same reason as the game vs. Redolfi - the "sacrifice" (or simply blunder) is incorrect, Fischer was in a losing position for quite a while, but got lucky when his opponent made an awful blunder (here, 41...Rb4??). To paraphrase his famous "sac, sac, mate" commment on the 1958 game vs. Larsen, that was more like - "pry open the h file, sac, sac... ooops - I'm down an exchange with no compensation, ooops - there goes another exchange, well - luckily he missed mate in 4". But the game vs. Reyes is very nice - somehow I missed it in the "survey". Btw, like most of the other games I went over, when you look at it with an engine, as far as the engine is concerned it's not "really" a sac (or at least not a "speculative" one) in the sense that 12...Rxc3 is considered to be the best move and to give Black a clear, "objective" advantage. As for your question about the game collections - no, I don't think you have to be a premium member to make them. |
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| Nov-09-09 |
| Garech: Another one, this time most of the middlegamme down the exchange due to an early oversight, I think. Minic vs Fischer, 1967 |
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| Nov-10-09 |
| Garech: Also, it would be a travesty to forget this one, although it's an example of one of those where it leads to almost immediate vicroty: Fischer vs Spassky, 1972 |
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| Nov-11-09 |
| Garech: A very creative one that leads to a winning position some ten moves later: Fischer vs S Hamann, 1968 |
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Nov-11-09
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| Eyal: <I actually had a quick look at all the KID and Sicilian wins by now, so here are the remaining candidate games that I found: A Pomar-Salamanca vs Fischer, 1966
<Minic vs Fischer, 1967> <Fischer vs S Hamann, 1968> R Byrne vs Fischer, 1971> |
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Nov-11-09
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| Eyal: In the Minic vs Fischer game, btw, the sac seems pretty sound although not decisive. In fact, I think that's the only sac of those I've seen so far that truly belongs to the "speculative" or long-term positional class - rather than being a blunder, part of a forcing combination, or leading immediately to a clear advantage. |
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| Nov-16-09 |
| Garech: This is a nice one that leads to a winning position, although I haven't analysed it with Fritz but it certainly looks like it was the strongest move: Fischer vs H Camara, 1970 |
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| Nov-16-09 |
| Eduardo Leon: <Garech>, in the Fischer-Camera game, the exchange sacrifice was justified by the fact that black hadn't castled. He lost a precious tempo by playing 10...  a5 only to retreat the queen later with 14... c7. Instead, 10... 0-0 would have been better. |
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| Nov-17-09 |
| Garech: A blitz game, but nonetheless - still a nice one:
R Byrne vs Fischer, 1971 |
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Algebraic edition, 2008
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sac: 21.Rxe6