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< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 52 OF 52 ·
Later Kibitzing > |
Jul-18-09
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| talisman: <WhiteRook48> you're right!...and then he screwed Shirov! |
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Jul-28-09
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| SirChrislov: <Duka Mika: All of those games are wrong. Anatoli Karpov never got a chance to play Bobby Fischer and he unfairly got the Chess World Championship title.> What games?? there were no games!! Karpov became the new champ due to Fischer's forfeit and as far as Karpov unfairly recieving the title, you got it all wrong,
it was Fischer who unfairly and cowardly gave it back to the russians without a fight. (I mean, come on!!!, that stupid 9-9 rule proposal, FIDE was never going to buy into that!, Fischer was just asking to be disqualified.) and Karpov went on to become champion by default a second time in 1993, this time because Kasparov dropped out of FIDE to form the rival and short-lived ACP. |
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Jul-28-09
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| SirChrislov: "Karpov knew he could hardly draw a game with Fischer, never mind winning one or two games. His only chance was to disrupt the match. So a whole arsenal of tricks was worked out, designed to upset the sensitive American, unaccustomed to such methods." -- Lev Alburt, CG Quote of the Day 7-28-09. |
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| Jul-28-09 |
| AnalyzeThis: One of those little details that you don't hear a lot about is the fact that Fischer signed a contract to play a match against Karpov, and Karpov refused to sign because the match was going to be a "Professional" match. Who exactly dodged whom? |
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Jul-28-09
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| wanabe2000: <SirChrislov: it was Fischer who unfairly and cowardly gave it back to the russians without a fight. (I mean, come on!!!, that stupid 9-9 rule proposal, FIDE was never going to buy into that!, Fischer was just asking to be disqualified.)> There is a conversation on the Karpov page.
I posted:
"The early Steinitz matches 1886 and 1889 were 10 wins but I don't think the 9-9 clause was in the conditions until 1889. The match against Gunsberg was a 10 wins or best of 20 with the 9-9 Champion retains". My point in all this was there was precedent for Fischer's request. It was not STUPID! |
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Jul-28-09
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| amadeus: Robert James Fischer <According to Karpov, they got as far as getting a contract drawn up, and a pen in Fischer's hand to sign it [in 1979]. At the last minute, Fischer wanted to know what to call it. He thought it should be "The Professional Chess Player's World Championship". Karpov balked at that. The Soviet Party Line was that their players were officially amateurs, and they wouldn't let him play in a match with "Professional" in the title. Campomanes said just sign the contract and we'll work out a name later that both sides can live with. Fischer said "No, I can't do it that way, in stages", and refused to sign.All that is from Karpov on Karpov.> |
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| Jul-29-09 |
| AnalyzeThis: It's not surprising that Karpov tells it that way. The other way you hear it is that Fischer had them put Professional in there, and did sign it, but Karpov woudn't. By the way, the Soviet Party line that Karpov was an amatuer is ridiculous. |
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| Oct-05-09 |
| Capabal: <M.D. Wilson: That's not an unreasonable statement. You have go to remember that all the chess pundits said Capablanca would steamroll Alekhine in 1927. Alekhine won in great fashion. You should not forget history, even if it proves to be inconvenient, so it's not fair to say that Fischer would have won the 1975 match simply because he was more experienced in matches and had a higher rating. You may as well predict the weather. You would think that a group of supposedly rational people wouldn't be so speculative. In Karpov, Fischer had an opponent the likes of which he had not previously faced: a prodigy from the next generation. Karpov made his moves so fast in those days, that, according to John Nunn, he instilled dread into his opponents, not unlike Fischer, but the inevitability of Karpov's play, reminiscent of Capablanca, was tough for anyone. Karpov was young, too. Very young, yet so accomplished.> <Fischer was smart enough to know that Karpov was a real threat. Who knows if Fischer could have defended his title? I think Spassky's assessment is at least as good as anyone else's: that Fischer would defend it in 1975, but that Karpov would win in 1978. I think this is reasonable. If people think they know more than Spassky, then by all means disagree, but I think his statement is reasonable. Iron sharpens iron, as they say. Still, you couldn't rule someone like Karpov out of any match.> Good points. Here are some relevant quotes on this topic. Interview with Kasparov
http://www.chesscafe.com/text/skitt...
[excerpt]
[...]
HR: 1968-75, ‘75 he becomes champion by default through ‘85, which is
when he holds the title, and he at that time appears to be on a mission to
prove that he really deserves to be champion. ‘86-90 and then ‘91-98. But in
the ‘68-75 period, what struck me was the emphasis that you placed on his
improvement almost match by match. You say on page 249, just before the
Spassky match, “that Spassky had no conception of the strength of the
grandmaster against whom he had been drawn,” which tells me that there
had been massive improvement Spassky either didn’t know or couldn’t
know.
GK: Yes, he didn’t know, probably he couldn’t know. Spassky was never
good at preparing in great depth for his opponents, and as I explain in the
book that this match was the final demonstration of the failure of
Bondarevsky’s concept of this “fresh head.” So just coming with an open
mind and not over-working on opening ideas and on the profile of your
opponent. Karpov, according to Razuvaev and others who worked with him,
spent more time on chess than ever in his life and his progress ...
HR: In that period?
GK: In that period. His progress from the early 70’s to the match with
Spassky, the end of the match, which in my view was probably one of the
highest quality ever played. It’s more than significant, it’s amazing. Spassky played this match better than he played in Reykjavik, much better, and he lost 7-4, which speaks for itself. HR: And Karpov is that much stronger because he’s hard-working, because
he’s inspired, because he’s matured ...
GK: It was a combination. I’m not sure I
could be absolutely correct in presenting
the reasons why he played so well. I’m just
looking at the moves, and you could see by
the very unusual rate of the number of
games picked up from the match. For
instance, from the Karpov-Korchnoi final
match I picked only one game, because
from my perspective, from the perspective
of someone who is analyzing the
development of the game of chess, the final
match made very little contribution. I
discovered there was very little I could
present to the public, both in terms of
general development of the game of chess
and also from Karpov’s prospects. While out of the 11 games he played with
Spassky, I picked 8. I picked eight because I thought it was an amazing
quality for an event of that magnitude. In my view the Karpov-Spassky
match was to a certain degree a substitute to the world championship match
we didn’t see in that cycle.
[continued on next post] |
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| Oct-05-09 |
| Capabal: [continued from previous post]
HR: Well, you’ve already said that you thought Karpov would defeat
Fischer.
GK: No, I didn’t say he would defeat Fischer. I think that Fischer, after the
Karpov-Spassky match, probably lost faith in his ability to beat Karpov. It
doesn’t mean that Fischer was inferior to Karpov, but for Fischer,
psychological confidence was everything. And looking at what Karpov did
to Spassky in 1974, I think shocked Fischer, because he knew Spassky’s
strengths and he could recognize that Spassky played in Leningrad better
than Reykjavik, and he had no chance. So that’s why I think Fischer was so
aggressive in pushing the unlimited match, ten wins, because he knew that
would be his best chance. The long match offered him a much better chance
than a short event. I’m sure he was impressed by the quality, and also the
creativity … but the way Karpov played. It was so light but also so deep. It
was a unique mixture, which could remind you of Morphy’s games, not in
style, but just in the invisible relative easiness of doing things, while every
move and every concept had a profound substantial idea behind it. [...] ---
Kramnik and Spassky on Karpov
Kramnik vs Anand, 2008 - Has Karpov followed the versatile pattern?
Kramnik: - Of course he has. Additionally, THERE IS SOMETHING MYSTERIOUS ABOUT HIS PLAY, no one else could cope with things like he did. It is easier for me to talk about Karpov because his collection of games was my first chess book. I studied his work when I was a child, later I played quite a few games against him. He is a versatile chess player, a good tactician who brilliantly calculates lines and positionally very strong. He also has a distinctive feature. Funnily enough, he has effectively denied Steinitz's pronouncement: if you have an advantage you must attack, otherwise, you will lose it. When having an edge, Karpov often marked time and still gained the advantage! I don't know anyone else who could do that, it's incredible. I was always impressed and delighted by this skill. When it looked like it was high time to start a decisive attack, Karpov played a3, h3, and his opponent's position collapsed. Karpov defeated me in Linares-94 where he scored 11 out of 13. I got into an inferior endgame. However, it did not seem awful. Then I made some appropriate moves AND COULD NOT UNDERSTAND HOW I HAD MANAGED TO GET INTO A LOSING POSITION. Although I was already in the world top ten, I FAILED TO UNDERSTAND IT EVEN AFTER THE GAME. This was one of the few games after which I felt like a complete idiot with a total lack of chess understanding! Such things happen very rarely to top level players. Usually you realize why you have lost. This moment defies description - there is something almost imperceptible about it and so characteristic of Karpov. <That reminds me of a statement made by Spassky to whom asked who was the strongest player he ever met: "It was not Fischer. It was Karpov: he was the only player that gave me feeling of not understanding what was going on the chessboard".> |
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| Oct-05-09 |
| AnalyzeThis: Spassky is on record as saying that Fischer would have had "an advantage" in a 1975 match with Karpov. It's pretty clear. |
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| Oct-05-09 |
| Capabal: I agree with Spassky. It is reasonable to suppose that Fischer had “an advantage.” That simply means you assess his chances at above 50%. It does NOT mean Fischer had an overwhelming advantage that guaranteed him to “crush” Karpov. Nothing is known really about the level of Fischer’s play at that time, since he had been inactive from competition for 3 years. But based on previous (shorter) abscences, and on the fact that he was after all dedicated to chess study, it is reasonable to suppose that his abilities had not been greatly diminished. But it is also clear that Karpov in 75 was the strongest player he would have faced, as easily derived from what Kasparov points out: Spassky played better in 74 than he had in 72. And Karpov crushed Spassky by a similar score Fishcher had crushed him in 72. One cannot conclude from this that Fischer had an overwhelming advantage. And this is the only hard fact we have to make a judgement, since Fischer had not played for 3 years. |
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| Oct-05-09 |
| AnalyzeThis: Actually, Spassky played worse in '74 than he did in '72. I know that folks repeat what Kasparov said here, and it's easy to understand why Kasparov would say this, because it bolsters his opinion. However, an independent opinion given by Edmar Mednis in his book "How Karpov Wins", harshly criticizes Spassky's play in this match. One mistake after another is pointed out. |
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| Oct-06-09 |
| Capabal: Edmar Mednis is of course a much sharper chess thinker than GK. If Edmar, makes an evaluation, who is Kasparov to disagree? |
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| Oct-06-09 |
| AnalyzeThis: You're missing the point. Of course Kasparov is a stronger player than Mednis, who was a GM strong enough to beat Fischer once. The point is that Mednis was independent, and his point of view came from the 1970's immediately after the match was played. Mednis had no particular reason to favor either Fischer or Karpov, as he was making money off of both selling books. Kasparov on the other hand, would have a natural tendency to show bias in this matter, because Karpov was the guy he beat. Let's see: you're Kasparov: do you want people to think that Karpov was strong, average, or weak as far was world champions go? Wouldn't there be a natural tendency to be biased, and try to emphasize Karpov's achievements, which would have a corresponding effect on how your achievement at beating Karpov would be judged? |
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| Oct-06-09 |
| Capabal: In what page of his book does Mednis say that Spassky played worse in 74 than in 72? Did he compile a list of what he considered mistakes or blunders by Spassky from both matches? |
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| Oct-07-09 |
| Pravitel: I quote Gabriel Velasco: Spassky said that he was in top form when he lost a candidates
match to Karpov in 1974. He said that during the years 1973 and 1974 he had
recovered his old top form of the sixties, but when he played Bobby Fischer in
Reykjavík 1972, he was in poor form from the psychological viewpoint.
http://www.chesscafe.com/text/skitt...
Spassky's strong performance in USSR championship before the Karpov match does also support this view. As well as you could claim Kasparov to be biased in this matter, without any evidence of course.., you could claim Mednis to be biased because he was an American grandmaster like Fischer. I am eager to see direct quotes of Mednis saying that Spassky played worse in the semifinal match than the Fischer match. Surely Spassky made some mistakes in the Karpov match but he made many mistakes in Reykjavik. |
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| Oct-07-09 |
| AnalyzeThis: <In what page of his book does Mednis say that Spassky played worse in 74 than in 72? Did he compile a list of what he considered mistakes or blunders by Spassky from both matches? > He wasn't that direct, memory serves. But he does list a multitude of Spassky errors, which are in the comments to some of the games on this site, if you look. Take this game, for example: Spassky vs Karpov, 1974
Mednis says that Spassky made no less than six (!) errors in this game. |
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Oct-07-09
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| euripides: <Mednis had no particular reason to favor either Fischer or Karpov, as he was making money off of both selling books.
Kasparov on the other hand, would have a natural tendency to show bias in this matter, because Karpov was the guy he beat.> These arguments based on impugning people's motives are too squalid to want to dirty one's hands with them. But as a matter of fact Fischer was the guy Mednis beat: Fischer vs Mednis, 1962 |
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| Oct-07-09 |
| Capabal: <He wasn't that direct, memory serves. But he does list a multitude of Spassky errors, which are in the comments to some of the games on this site, if you look. Take this game, for example: Spassky vs Karpov, 1974
Mednis says that Spassky made no less than six (!) errors in this game.> So you are basing your argument on one comment made by one poster referring to one Spassky game, where he simply says that Mednis identified 6 ¨errors¨ which you follow with an exclamation mark for theatrical effect, as if they were blunders. The poster who mentions this in the comments to the above game calls them ¨errors¨ on his first mention and ¨inaccuracies¨ on the second. What was Mednis definition of ¨inaccuracy¨ and how many GM games is he aware of that contain no inaccuracies? Since Mednis apparently made no attempt to compare inaccuracies with the 72 match, there is no basis at all to make the claim that Spassky played worse in 74, and so Mednis didn´t make any such claim. General agreement long before Kasparov went through those games, was that Karpov had played very well against Spassky. Since chess at this level is over the heads of many of us, and human commentators are fallible or may harbor ulterior motives, it might be interesting to analyze deeply with a strong engine those moves that Mednis identifies as errors or inaccuracies and see how they compare with the ones Mednis suggests, if any. Or to run Spassky´s losses from both matches through this kind of analysis and see in which one Spassky´s chosen moves are more widely off the computer chosen mark. |
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| Oct-07-09 |
| ughaibu: Euripides: Nice one. Thanks for dirtying your hands. Capabal: RookFile has already drawn attention to the fact that Mednis' analysis was from the 70s. It's difficult to see how it could outrank Kasparov's, or other modern computer assisted analysis. |
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| Oct-08-09 |
| Capabal: <ughaibu:
Capabal: RookFile has already drawn attention to the fact that Mednis' analysis was from the 70s. It's difficult to see how it could outrank Kasparov's, or other modern computer assisted analysis.>I reject the notion that the accuracy of a chess analysis increases with its temporal proximity to the games being analyzed -- I reject it completely. The quality of a chess analysis is dependent first of all on the chess strength of the analyzer. And second on the tools and knowledge at his disposal (which tend to increase rather than decrease with time). I also have already drawn attention to the fact that Mednis analysis did not venture into any comparisons between the two matches. This whole argument is based on somebody's post on <one> game mentioning that Mednis supposedly says he found six inaccuracies in that game. From which a gratuitous leap is dreamily made to conclude that the quality of play was worse than in the 72 match. Not very serious stuff. |
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Oct-08-09
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| chancho: Spassky may have played better in 1974 as opposed to 1972.(in spite of what Mednis said.) At the time he played Fischer, the title weighed heavily on him and his results suffered somewhat. After he lost his title, he became motivated and won the USSR championship with all the best players there. What may have hurt Spassky in his match with Karpov, was his second Geller going to Karpov's camp.
The guy knew him inside and out, and Karpov definitely benefitted from that alliance. |
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| Oct-18-09 |
| WhiteRook48: Spassky played better in 1970 |
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| Nov-03-09 |
| seeminor: "Evidently, the Korchnoi who lost to Petrosian, who in turn got slapped around by Fischer, would have been stronger than Fischer...." I always found this kind of analysis of who could beat who gets people in a twist. Kasparov himself indulged in it by declaring Karpov a new breed of player who would have shown up Fischer as a dinosaur. Therefore Kasparov is declaring himself the supreme chessplayer as he defeated Karpov. But really if a contest could be decided so clinically, even a chess match where preparation is key, no one would care. Personally i think Fischer would have won the '75 contest, but his major problem would have been that his style was based on clear, clean positions with no irrationality. Karpov too was a genius in positional games and would have been very comfortable in Fischers world. Many of these games would have been played to an endgame, and no doubt would have produced books on how to approach them! Karpov could never remain as ordered when he faced Kasparov because Kasparov kept on playing 'dynamically'(i hate that word). In his book fighting chess, Kasparov said that Karpov almost always faced a novelty with a safe move that avoided calculation, but allowed him to get parity through positional means. |
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Nov-03-09
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| HeMateMe: When are they going to draw colors for game one? |
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< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 52 OF 52 ·
Later Kibitzing > |
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