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| Mar-12-08 |
| Petrosianic: And he wasn't a German citizen, so really unlikely that he wore one. If the guy had been from the Gestapo or something, he'd probably have known the backgrounds of all the visiting journalists. But it may have just been some grunt from the Paper Clip Department, who didn't know didddly and didn't want to risk getting in trouble with his superiors. You know, it just occurred to me, it must have been a real bummer to be a Nazi, but not have enough authority to get anybody shot. What's the point of joining the Party AT ALL, then?? |
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| Mar-12-08 |
| slomarko: <You know, it just occurred to me, it must have been a real bummer to be a Nazi, but not have enough authority to get anybody shot. What's the point of joining the Party AT ALL, then??> what the @#$% are you talking about? |
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| Mar-12-08 |
| MichAdams: The guy could have been Hans Frank's 2IC wanting to let him know that his order of Brylcreem had just arrived from England. |
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Mar-12-08
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| whiteshark: This story is often narrated. In contrast it's largely unknown that Nimzowitsch had an extra 'attendant' aside. His task was to minimise such antics. |
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Mar-27-08
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| Caissanist: By the time of this match Nimzowitsch had less than a year to live, and it seems to have been obvious that he was dying (he was suffering some kind of lung ailment). Maybe he preferred martyrdom to anonymous death in a flophouse. |
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| Mar-27-08 |
| James Demery: Hey MichAdams were you WMD in another life? |
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| Apr-08-08 |
| RookFile: It's pretty amazing that the chess world allowed Alekhine to play another match against Bogo. In no particular order, I believe that: Keres, Botvinnik, Reshevsky, Fine, Kashdan, Euwe, Flohr, and of course Capablanca would have defeated Bogo in a match play. Arguably, you can throw the meteor known as Sultan Khan onto this list as well. Even an old Lasker would have beaten Bogo in a match, if special considerations involving extra rest for the players were factored in. So, instead of a worthy championship match, we sent the clown in again. |
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Apr-08-08
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| percyblakeney: <I believe that: Keres, Botvinnik, Reshevsky, Fine, Kashdan, Euwe, Flohr, and of course Capablanca would have defeated Bogo in a match play. Arguably, you can throw the meteor known as Sultan Khan onto this list as well. Even an old Lasker would have beaten Bogo in a match> Don't forget Spielmann, he won a ten game match against Bogo in 1932. :-) |
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Apr-08-08
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| keypusher: <It's pretty amazing that the chess world allowed Alekhine to play another match against Bogo. In no particular order, I believe that: Keres, Botvinnik, Reshevsky, Fine, Kashdan, Euwe, Flohr, and of course Capablanca would have defeated Bogo in a match play. Arguably, you can throw the meteor known as Sultan Khan onto this list as well.> Well, the chess world had no say in the matter in those pre-FIDE days. Leaving aside the merits of your match predictions, I think Fine and Reshevsky were not yet well-known outside of America (of course Reshevsky had been a famous child prodigy, but hadn't done much yet as an adult), and Keres wasn't known at all. Botvinnik had done well in Soviet events and drawn a match with Flohr, but had done relatively poorly at Hastings, his one exposure to the West at that point. I don't think Kashdan or Sultan Khan were ever considered world championship timber, and Lasker was inactive and not really a WC candidate anyway. So the world wasn't awash in qualified challengers. Not that any of this excuses this match. |
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Apr-08-08
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| keypusher: <percy blakeney><Don't forget Spielmann, he won a ten game match against Bogo in 1932. :-)> That brings up a question. One of my favorite measures for how good a chess master is from after 1900 through the early 30s is how well he did against the big three: Lasker, Capablanca and Alekhine. It's a tough test. Bogoljubov had horrible scores against all three. Nimzowitsch had terrible scores against Alekhine and Capablanca. Rubinstein did OK against Capablanca and Lasker, but not Alekhine. Maroczy did badly against all three. Vidmar had negative scores against all three, though not dreadful ones. But Spielmann all but held his own: +2-4=11 against Alekhine, +2-2=8 against Capablanca, +0-1=4 against Lasker. But as far as I can tell, Spielmann was never seriously considered as a challenger for the world title. Does anyone know why? |
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| Apr-08-08 |
| Petrosianic: I don't know why specifically, but I'd guess that (for whatever reason) he never seriously pursued it. Either he didn't think enough of his chances to try to get the necessary funding (I've never heard any stories of his trying and failing), or he didn't want the aggravation of the whole process.
When he beat Bogo in 1932, chessmetrics shows him as the world #11. Plus, he was 48 years old at the time. Maybe the odds just weren't worth the effort. |
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| Apr-08-08 |
| Petrosianic: <Leaving aside the merits of your match predictions, I think Fine and Reshevsky were not yet well-known outside of America (of course Reshevsky had been a famous child prodigy, but hadn't done much yet as an adult), and Keres wasn't known at all.> Yeah, the "New Generation" wasn't quite there yet in 1934. By 1938 they were, in force. But in 1934, Fine was only 19 years old. Keres and Reshevsky weren't even close. Botvinnik was fairly good by then, but not quite Top 10 material, and only 22 years old. Kashdan might have made a good challenger. He was at his peak in the early 30's. This was Flohr's best time, too. |
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| Apr-08-08 |
| RookFile: Yes, I'm not saying that some of these guys should have played Alekhine. I'm just saying they would have beaten Bogo. |
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| Apr-08-08 |
| slomarko: <Arguably, you can throw the meteor known as Sultan Khan onto this list as well.> RookFile trolling as usual. |
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Apr-08-08
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| percyblakeney: <But as far as I can tell, Spielmann was never seriously considered as a challenger for the world title. Does anyone know why?> He probably didn't have enough money, and maybe he lacked a just a little bit result wise even if he had some very impressive tournament wins, like Semmering 1926, ahead of Alekhine. I read somewhere that the list of players that had an even score with Capablanca, after having won more than one game against him, is very short. It looks like this: Rudolf Spielmann |
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| Apr-08-08 |
| Petrosianic: <I read somewhere that the list of players that had an even score with Capablanca, after having won more than one game against him, is very short. It looks like this: Rudolf Spielmann>
I guess that's true, the way you stated it: "after having won MORE than one game". But several people had even scores against him based on more than one game played, such as: Keres +1-0=5, Botvinnik +1-1=5, Reshevsky +1-1=4, and Fine +0-0=5. And the list of people who won more than one game from Capa (with or without breaking even) is pretty darn short: Lasker, Alekhine, Marshall, Spielmann... hmmm, is that it? |
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| Apr-08-08 |
| RookFile: Juan Corzo is worth a mention. |
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Apr-08-08
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| percyblakeney: On the Spielmann page it is also mentioned that he played a training match against Euwe in 1935. Spielmann scored +4 -2 =4, so in their latest matches before playing Alekhine, the latter's challengers both lost to Spielmann... |
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Apr-08-08
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| keypusher: <But several people had even scores against him based on more than one game played, such as: Keres +1-0=5, Botvinnik +1-1=5, Reshevsky +1-1=4, and Fine +0-0=5.> Yes, but all of those games are 1935 or later, aren't they? Not to denigrate the players -- the mid-30s generation was the strongest to come along since I don't know when. But they were playing a diminished Capablanca. That's one reason Spielmann's score impressed me so much. |
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| Apr-08-08 |
| RookFile: It's true that Capa had lost a step. It gives you an indication of what his strength was at his peak when you think of a second gear Capa playing somebody like Botvinnik even. |
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| Apr-08-08 |
| Petrosianic: Yes, it's certainly something to be proud of, and I have to confess, a Capablanca-Spielmann match might have had some interest, just because Capa beat other wild attacking players (like Marshall, Bogo and Janowski) handily, but this one he didn't. If I could rewrite history, I'd schedule a Capablanca-Spielmann match in 1919, in place of that Capablanca-Kostic massacre that was actually played. |
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| Oct-30-08 |
| mjmorri: I believe the New York tournament of 1927 was thought of as a kind of candidates tournament for the right to play Capablanca. Alekhine could have used this approach in selecting an opponent. Offer the winner (or runner-up in case Alekhine won) of a major tournament the right to arrange a match. There probably would have been more interest in funding such a match. |
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Oct-30-08
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| Karpova: <mjmorri: I believe the New York tournament of 1927 was thought of as a kind of candidates tournament for the right to play Capablanca.> No, it wasn't. |
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| Oct-30-08 |
| Petrosianic: <No, it wasn't.>
You're right, it wasn't. The Capablanca-Alekhine match was already signed and sealed before New York 1927 began, and would have happened regardless of how Alekhine fared in that tournament. Of course it would have been a little embarrassing if anyone other than Capablanca had outscored him, but still, it was not in any way, shape or form a Candidates Tournament. Neither was AVRO. |
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| Oct-30-08 |
| mjmorri: <Petrosianic><Karpova> My source came from this site.
www3.sympatico.ca/g.giffen/playersA-E.html
I guess I should have check further.
Sorry for the misinformation. |
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< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 3 OF 3 ·
Later Kibitzing > |
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Alekhine-Bogoljubov World Championship Rematch (1934)
In the years since the 1929 World Championship Match a new generation of strong players had
just begun to arrive on the scene, including Sammy Reshevsky and Reuben Fine of the US, Paul
Keres of Estonia, Mikhail Botvinnik of the USSR, and Salo Flohr of Czechoslovakia, as well
as Jose Capablanca, who was still trying unsuccessfully to arrange a return match for the
title. Under the circumstances, the chess world reacted with something less than jubiliation
when it was announced that 
